Skip to comments.
Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^
| February 25, 2015
Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer
|
Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages. From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain. |
It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:
This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes:
I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.
In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.
So Christ has now told us
three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does
Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is
Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”
Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for
a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).
Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:
- Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
- No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
- Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.
In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more,
grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.
God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.
So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace
enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace
causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:
- A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
- This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
- This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error.
This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-20, 21-40, 41-60, 61-80 ... 421-439 next last
1
posted on
02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST
by
NYer
To: Tax-chick; GregB; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; Salvation; ...
2
posted on
02/25/2015 11:50:39 AM PST
by
NYer
(Without justice - what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
To: Gamecock; metmom; RnMomof7; daniel1212; CynicalBear; Mark17; HarleyD; BlueDragon; Resettozero; ...
It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions.... ....trashing Protestants!
3
posted on
02/25/2015 11:56:43 AM PST
by
Alex Murphy
("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
To: NYer
A classic Hebrew formulation.
4
posted on
02/25/2015 11:59:25 AM PST
by
onedoug
To: NYer
Ephesians: 2 covers Christ’s Grace pretty well.
5
posted on
02/25/2015 12:04:10 PM PST
by
shove_it
(The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen -- Dennis Prager)
To: NYer
There is a way of incorporating a "No True Scotsman" argument without bowdlerizing Scripture.
Our perspective on earth is temporal: at any khronos moment in time, we may or may not have obtained salvation, we may or may not have dis-obtained salvation. It may or may not be that salvation is not dis-obtainable in a temporal sense.
But our salvation depends on God's grace through Christ's death and resurrection, and God's perspective is not temporal but eternal. "Eternal" doesn't mean "it goes on forever without stopping," but rather that all experience occurs in a kairos at-the-moment-which-is-all-moments manner that cannot be explained in a temporal sense.
Christ, for example, has been kairos slain from the foundation of the world, once for all time, but He was slain during a khronos point in time on the cross, 2000 years ago in temporal measure.
So, assuming that I am saved, which I do assume based on Christ's merit, and assuming that I will not lose my salvation, which I do assume based on the grace of God acting in my life, then I cannot lose my salvation, because my salvation has existed since the foundation of the world, since the source of my salvation (the death and resurrection of Christ) has occurred since the foundation of the world. However, it can look, in a temporal sense, like a person could lose his/her salvation, but such a person was never saved in an eternal sense, because the whole of the person's experience would be already known in eternity.
This is where the paradox of predestination vs. free will is not "solved," because there is no solving it while we are stuck in our temporal existence, but recognized to have a solution that will be understood in eternity, when we will be in a position to understand existence both in temporal and eternal terms.
6
posted on
02/25/2015 12:12:07 PM PST
by
chajin
("There is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12)
To: Alex Murphy; Gamecock
It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions.... ....trashing Protestants!
Projection at its finest. Maybe you meant to be on a thread authored by Gamecock? This thread isn't trashing anybody but exploring matters of faith.
7
posted on
02/25/2015 12:25:56 PM PST
by
pgyanke
(Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
To: chajin
And people say Catholics split hairs...
Reread the article. He deals with this by pointing out the parable of the debtor. Was he forgiven by his master? Whether in time, for all time, or at one time... he was. Should he then have forgiven others? Yes. Did he fail? Yes. Was he ‘unforgiven’? Yes.
This parable answers your complicated challenge.
8
posted on
02/25/2015 12:29:53 PM PST
by
pgyanke
(Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
To: pgyanke; Alex Murphy
***This thread isn’t trashing anybody but exploring matters of faith.***
One man’s exploration of faith is another’s trashing.
I do nothing but explore. Does that make you...uncomfortable?
9
posted on
02/25/2015 12:30:37 PM PST
by
Gamecock
(Joel Osteen is a minister of the Gospel like Colonel Sanders is an Infantry officer.)
To: NYer
Matthew 6:9-15 (RSV)
9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;
12 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;
13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil.
14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
10
posted on
02/25/2015 12:32:52 PM PST
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
Ok, maybe it is just me, but it sure seems that the author of this piece is reading into it through his Roman lenses.
CLEARLY, if someone has an unforgiving heart, then they are a practitioner of hypocrisy in the highest order. A child of God will always be willing to forgive, however imperfectly. If someone’s heart is so hardened that they refuse to forgive, then they truly cannot know Him.
There are some subtleties here, but then again, much of the difference between Roman and Protestant theology hinges on some subtleties. However, the explicit teaching of Scripture is this:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” - Ephesians 8:9-10
“For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” - Romans 3:28
For the Romanist to declare that Justification is not by faith alone flies in the face of the clear, ordinary reading of these passages. Plus, when it all comes down to it, does it not render the Lord’s shed blood ineffectual and weak, if it is up to US to add our menstrual rags works (that’s what the Bible calls them) to the equation? Then, if so, why did Jesus even bother die for our sins? He could’ve skipped the entire ordeal and just left it all to us, rather than some of it.
Friends, please don’t abandon the Gospel’s purity and clarity for the sake of works. Works is what every other system of religion tells us we need to know god. Christianity is a fellowship with GOD through the work of JESUS, and it is victorious and triumphant. Now, go and LIVE and LOVE for Him!
To: NYer
Matthew, chapter 6:9-15 (RNAB)
The Lord’s Prayer.
9* “This is how you are to pray:c
Our Father in heaven,*
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,*
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.d
11* e Give us today our daily bread;
12and forgive us our debts,*
as we forgive our debtors;f
13and do not subject us to the final test,*
but deliver us from the evil one.g
14* If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.h
15But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.i >
12
posted on
02/25/2015 12:34:54 PM PST
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: Gamecock; pgyanke
One mans exploration of faith is anothers trashing. I do nothing but explore. Does that make you...uncomfortable? Try not to think of the sound of a latex glove "snapping". It will only contribute to the discomfort during the examination.
13
posted on
02/25/2015 12:38:54 PM PST
by
Alex Murphy
("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
To: pgyanke
This parable answers your complicated challenge.Let's assume that the parable exemplifies what it seems to exemplify, that the king represents God, the servant with the huge debt represents me, and the man who is indebted to me represents my neighbor.
The two men with the debts can be interchangeable with their representations: I can be just like the servant, and my neighbor can be just like the one indebted to the servant.
But the king cannot be interchangeable with God, because the king is a man. As a man, the king gives forgiveness one day, and then removes it the next, because his experience of his own life is temporal, and the experience of the king's actions by others can only be seen temporally.
God, on the other hand, already knows, before offering forgiveness for my debt, whether I will be willing to forgive others, and thereby allow the forgiveness to "take" as salvation--otherwise, God is neither omniscient nor omnipresent. One might go a step further, based on Ephesians 2:8-10, and surmise that God already has acted in my life to both enable and cause my forgiveness of my neighbor--or, for that matter, enabled but not caused, while knowing whether or not I will cause the forgiveness. These are both possible, and it is therefore not hairsplitting: it is letting God be God, and not entrapping God as nothing more than a temporal king, someone who can act with authority, but who is entrapped in time.
14
posted on
02/25/2015 12:44:02 PM PST
by
chajin
("There is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12)
To: Arkansas Toothpick
For the Romanist to declare that Justification is not by faith alone flies in the face of the clear, ordinary reading of these passages. Plus, when it all comes down to it, does it not render the Lords shed blood ineffectual and weak, if it is up to US to add our menstrual rags works (thats what the Bible calls them) to the equation? Then, if so, why did Jesus even bother die for our sins? He couldve skipped the entire ordeal and just left it all to us, rather than some of it. Alternately, we can look at it as our needing BOTH faith AND works, with neither being sufficient by itself.
A number of Jesus' parables, not just the debtor one, allude to this. Faith must "bear fruit" in the form of works in order to be worthy.
15
posted on
02/25/2015 12:46:38 PM PST
by
PapaBear3625
(You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
To: Arkansas Toothpick
Ok, maybe it is just me, but it sure seems that the author of this piece is reading into it through his Roman lenses. Of course, no Protestant ever was guilty of reading into Scripture through his Protestant lenses.
16
posted on
02/25/2015 12:50:33 PM PST
by
NorthMountain
("The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things")
To: NYer; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that. Another objection due to superficial consideration. Sola fide refers to the means of appropriating forgiveness, God "purifying their hearts by faith" as Peter said, (Acts 15:7-9) referring to souls being washed and born again before baptism, and thus confessing the Lord thereby, but which is not contrary to repentance and what that may require.
For to believe on the Lord Jesus is to assent to obey Him, according to light realized. And asking forgiveness means we must be forgiving, and this prayer is dealing with believers. Who by faith, have God as their Father, but who will work to chasten them unto repentance if they do not repent, or repent fully.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)
That is where even torment in this life may come in, in working to preserve souls by faith from the torment that would result from "an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God." (Heb. 3:12)
17
posted on
02/25/2015 12:50:44 PM PST
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: Salvation; NYer; metmom; CynicalBear; Elsie; daniel1212
Matthew 6:9-15 (RSV) 9 Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread; 12 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; 13 And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. 14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. And no mention of you know who!
18
posted on
02/25/2015 12:54:28 PM PST
by
ealgeone
To: pgyanke; Alex Murphy
If I were indeed trashing, based on the article, you are required to forgive me, right?
19
posted on
02/25/2015 1:04:27 PM PST
by
Gamecock
(Joel Osteen is a minister of the Gospel like Colonel Sanders is an Infantry officer.)
To: chajin
God, on the other hand, already knows, before offering forgiveness for my debt, whether I will be willing to forgive others, and thereby allow the forgiveness to "take" as salvation--otherwise, God is neither omniscient nor omnipresent. The OP already dealt with this challenge with examples from Scripture (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2). Some try to say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
Here's a question... why did Abraham have to try to sacrifice Isaac? Surely, God Who is omnipotent and omnipresent knew the outcome of such a challenge and didn't have to actually have Abraham demonstrate his faith. In fact, you could say that God, in this example, is only going through the motions so Abraham could have the opportunity to show his faith (and realize it himself). The test was only over after the actual attempt, not the ascent of will by Abraham. We are to DO God's Will, not just accept that we would. Faith is an action word. It is following the commands of Christ to do the Will of His Heavenly Father.
God exists out of time. We are in time. The only way we can show our love and devotion to God is in time and in following His Will. Abraham didn't take it upon himself to sacrifice Isaac before he was asked because that wouldn't be God's Will, it would have been Abraham's. He had to wait to be asked even though Scripture showed very clearly that he was ready. Our ascent is in time, as is our faith walk. In that walk, we will experience forgiveness and forgive or fail to forgive and lose our own inheritance. The process is laid out in black and white in Scripture and played out in time in history.
20
posted on
02/25/2015 1:05:06 PM PST
by
pgyanke
(Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-20, 21-40, 41-60, 61-80 ... 421-439 next last
Disclaimer:
Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual
posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its
management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the
exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson