Posted on 02/24/2015 3:58:46 PM PST by RaceBannon
Revelation is certainly all about Him..
John has an interesting style that can be seen in a few place and it focuses on what He first Hears, and then what he Sees and even though they appear to be a contraat on one level, on another level, they are the same.
Rev 1:10- Hears a trumpet but sees
Rev 1:12- sees the Son of Man
Rev 5:5- Hears of a Lion but
Rev 5:6- sees a Lamb
Rev 17:1- Hears of a woman on many waters but
Rev 17:3- sees woman on a beast
Rev 21:9- Hears of the Bride but
Rev 21:10- Sees the City New Jerusalem
Rev 7:4- Hears a number, 144,000 sealed but
Rev 7:9- Sees a great multitude uncountable..
And it is that last contrast that I think goes to your comment..
It is those great multitudes that go ‘through’ the great tribulation.. (7:14)
What he hears is one thing and what he then sees is a physical contrast but a spiritual ‘match’..
And he uses that ‘contrasting’ a few times in the book of revelation..
The 144,000 are still alive on earth. The “great multitude that no one could count” are those who were killed during the tribulation for not taking the name or number of the beast. Who knows how many people there are that will realize after the rapture that we were right. Many of those will at that point understand that what we taught about Christ is the only way to avoid eternity in hell. It will be those untold millions that will be killed and will then be numbered among that “multitude”.
So you have decided that the pattern he had of first hearing about one thing and then seeing something of an opposite or a contrast is not applicable to the 144,000 and the great ,multitude..
I known it doesn’t fit the left behind folks but how can we ignore a pattern of that kind in a book full that admits in the first verse that it uses symbols (signified)?
How does a pattern of hearing one thing but seeing it ‘symbolized’ in an opposite way not count on that one example when we can it used a few times in the exact same book?
The lion and the lamb are ‘opposites’ yet we know they mean the same person. The elder spoke to John about the Lion who can pen the book but when John ‘sees’ the vision, it is a Lamb..
The great voice, like a trumpet was heard by John and the voice of man (any man) do not sound ‘alike’ but when he turned he saw the Son of man.. same thing..
The angel speaks to John about the great harlot that sits on many waters.. when john ‘sees’ the vision and he sees a woman, not on water, but on a beast..
Same thing..
John has an angel speak to him about the bride and the wife of the Lamb, and in the vision he doesn’t see a woman, but a city, Holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven.
Same bride
John ‘heard’ the number from the angel of the sealing of the 144,000, 12000 from every tribe of the children on Israel..
And when he actually saw it, he saw a great multitude which no man could number.
Same Israel ?
If it was the only time he ‘heard’ something and then ‘saw’ something else, we could make the jump.
We have the other examples that either have to be rejected or we have to say the only one that doesn’t apply is the one that deals with ‘literal’ numbers..
144000 and 12000 are very symbolic numbers, as every number in scripture has spiritual significance, (sign)
And those numbers were ‘heard’, not seen by john..
Kind of like he heard about a lion but he saw a lamb..
There is one number that was not ‘heard’ by john that is interesting. 1000 years..
And funny that is a number people try to make a symbolic number in revelation and make other numbers ‘literal’.
If you are right, then the left behind folks have a case.
If john’s pattern can be believed, there is no rapture before the great tribulation because that great multitude is spiritual Israel.. and they are protected through the tribulation while the other ‘seas’ of people and dry grass and trees are dealt with..
I read revelation very literal and then saw those seas and grass and tress can be used in scripture not just literal, but symbolic.
Green grass and trees- faithful to God
Dry grass and trees - not faithful to God.
Places like Luke 23:31 has that sort of symbolism. Ezekiel 20:45-48 has those types of symbols..
Hail, fire are signs and symbols for His judgment
The earth, trees, grass symbols of His people as well as literal ‘things’..
Maybe revelation tells a story from resurrection to His coming that is told too literally in religious circles and not spiritually enough.
People with a ‘literal’ view may see something like the trumpets as pretty harsh but in the spiritual sense, they are wake up calls to those who wander from being faithful to God. A journey we all
take. A history lesson through to the end of time that hadnt happened in our ‘time’ yet.
A story of the church and the ‘church age’ when so many saythe church has nothing to do with revelation..
It is why there are lots of people with lots of different opinions..
The 1st trumpet ‘literal’ is a scary scene but symbolically it means 1/3 of His people (trees, green grass) was ‘burnt up’ and became dry and no longer worth anything to Him and wandered away.. He caused this but it really is due to their rejection of His Son.
Even something literal like the trumpets can seem to have a ‘symbolic’ meaning in light of His Gospel and not a dead end but a turn off to come back to Him.
The battle of amageddom is symbolic of a battle every person has to face in their life..
Reading revelation with a focus on the spiritual can change the entire tone and tenor of things like those trumpets and it reads as a very ‘his lovingkindness endures forever’ hopeful book.
Almost like they could be wake up calls all along a person’s journey..a bugle call..
Warnings of what lies ahead, spiritually in terms of blessings and curses.
But each person’s journey is different..
And people read revelation differently..
Without understanding Old Testament prophesy it will all be “symbolic” per whatever pre conceived notions one has. Especially Daniels prophesies of 490 years of which there are seven left. The 144,000 are literally 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel who will be protected during the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year tribulation.
I’ll just enjoy the popcorn while watching you and e-s.
One curious conversation topic is how lists of the tribes vary slightly from source to source, none of the sources being self conscious about it.
People can see Daniel differently..
Israel had their seven.. personal plea from the Messiah that started in 27 AD.. He was cut off and did away with the sacrifices 3,5 years in when He became sin, 31 AD.
His message continued to Israel for another 3.5 years after His resurrection and that seven years closed with the stoning death of Stephen in 34 AD at the hands of the Sanhedrin..
A personal plea rejected..Israel lost out and the Gentiles began to be grafted in..
And Rome can as the desolator and leveled jerusalem..
Rome is and will continue to be the desolator
And the first reformers werent wrong in calling the papacy the seat of antichrist.
There was a decree that happened in 457 BC to rebuild temple.
69” sevens’ would be 483 years
That would bring one to 27AD.
That is when He began His ministry.
7 years would end in 34 AD and that was when the message of the gospel started to go out to the Gentiles and the rest of the world after the stoning of Stephen by the Sanhedrin and the scattering of the disciples from Jerusalem..
That shows a literal fulfillment of the 490 years, including the last 7 which was a personal, physical plea to repent.
Which they rejected.. and then at some point, wrath will be poured out on the desolator (Rome)
We know that will come.
Rome and the papacy and the pope called the desolator, seat of the antichrist and antichrist have biblical foundations.
And it also makes having a rebuilt temple in jeruslalem not a need.
They can do abominations just by speaking from the human body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit given to us by God.
I'm not sure what you mean by "from source to source". The only source that should be considered is scripture. The twelve tribes are clearly identified in scripture.
There is so much error in your post I couldn’t possibly address them all in one post. Jesus death on the cross was when He was “cut off”. The apostles preached to the lost tribes of Israel well beyond the death of Stephen. The temple that is to built is much different in dimensions than the one destroyed in 70AD. Rome is not the desolator. The 483 years ended when Christ was crucified. And Revelation was written in 96AD and was prophesy. And I won’t discuss this any further with you.
Various passages... you’ll see discrepancies (huh? discrepancies in scripture... well yes they are, which is a rude surprise to those who think they are dealing with a wooden book).
Please illustrate and show one.
You don’t accept the premise that Rome’s jesus is the counterfeit/false/anti/in place of/instead of/substitute Christ..
I don’t accept the premise Rome represents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Beloved Son.
You and I wont see scripture the same because you and I don’t see Rome’s Jesus the same.
I see him as a roman counterfeit.
And I don’t know if Christendom has more than one ‘Jesus’ to choose from.
The world starts with Rome’s Jesus because the world starts with the pope’s calendar and not the protestant calendar.
And Daniel has something to say about that.. so does revelation but you and I differ on lots of prophecy..
To each their own..
Do you not pay attention at all? That statement indicates to me that you are so disconnected from what I have been posting and have absolutely no idea what I believe. It would therefore be a total waste of my time to consider conversation with you further.
Your disconnect is with how Rome plays a part today in places like revelation 13 instead of after a rapture.
Those commandments of His that deal with worship are being broken in revelation 13 today. In christian churches, Jewish synagogues, Muslim mosques, etc..
And far as I can see, nobody has left in a blink..
And it is true I have not seen where youhave told catholics and protestants their faith is in satan’s counterfeit. I will look closer going forward though.. thanks for the heads up..
I’ve always believed it was days, but the Bible actually does not say whether or not there was a time lapse between the first one or two sentences, and the rest of them. After all, there would need to be a cooling off period, whether he created it in one day or not. It seems logical that the earth was created first, then cooled off, before anything else happened. We do know that carbon dating is false. Mt. St. Helen, proved that. It’s one of those questions I’ll ask the LORD when I get to Heaven.
I personally, have seen a person’s short leg grow out to its normal length, instantly, right in front of my eyes. It didn’t get longer by the person stretching his leg out, or anything like that. A blurring occurred as the leg grew out. I was close enough to see that. God can do anything he wants, any way He wants to, or else He wouldn’t be God.
I would have to disagree with you, that the OT is unnecessary. It is filled with prophecy about Jesus and the end times. It is the Word of God. That alone gives it its worth. Jesus, as well as the authors of the New Testament, quoted the OT. Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” He also said, “ Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word (my emphasis), that proceeds from the mouth of God.” The Apostle Paul said, “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Apostles only had the acts and words of Jesus, and the OT from which to preach and study. One main reason they believed in Jesus, was from their knowledge of OT scriptures. When Nathaniel asked, “Can any good thing come from Nazareth?”, the ‘good thing’ to which he was referring, was the Messiah, and the reason he posed the question, is because the OT said the Messiah comes from Bethlehem. Paul and the other authors of the NT, based their teachings not only by the words of Jesus, but by the scriptures they were taught from their youth.
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