So you have decided that the pattern he had of first hearing about one thing and then seeing something of an opposite or a contrast is not applicable to the 144,000 and the great ,multitude..
I known it doesn’t fit the left behind folks but how can we ignore a pattern of that kind in a book full that admits in the first verse that it uses symbols (signified)?
How does a pattern of hearing one thing but seeing it ‘symbolized’ in an opposite way not count on that one example when we can it used a few times in the exact same book?
The lion and the lamb are ‘opposites’ yet we know they mean the same person. The elder spoke to John about the Lion who can pen the book but when John ‘sees’ the vision, it is a Lamb..
The great voice, like a trumpet was heard by John and the voice of man (any man) do not sound ‘alike’ but when he turned he saw the Son of man.. same thing..
The angel speaks to John about the great harlot that sits on many waters.. when john ‘sees’ the vision and he sees a woman, not on water, but on a beast..
Same thing..
John has an angel speak to him about the bride and the wife of the Lamb, and in the vision he doesn’t see a woman, but a city, Holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven.
Same bride
John ‘heard’ the number from the angel of the sealing of the 144,000, 12000 from every tribe of the children on Israel..
And when he actually saw it, he saw a great multitude which no man could number.
Same Israel ?
If it was the only time he ‘heard’ something and then ‘saw’ something else, we could make the jump.
We have the other examples that either have to be rejected or we have to say the only one that doesn’t apply is the one that deals with ‘literal’ numbers..
144000 and 12000 are very symbolic numbers, as every number in scripture has spiritual significance, (sign)
And those numbers were ‘heard’, not seen by john..
Kind of like he heard about a lion but he saw a lamb..
There is one number that was not ‘heard’ by john that is interesting. 1000 years..
And funny that is a number people try to make a symbolic number in revelation and make other numbers ‘literal’.
If you are right, then the left behind folks have a case.
If john’s pattern can be believed, there is no rapture before the great tribulation because that great multitude is spiritual Israel.. and they are protected through the tribulation while the other ‘seas’ of people and dry grass and trees are dealt with..
I read revelation very literal and then saw those seas and grass and tress can be used in scripture not just literal, but symbolic.
Green grass and trees- faithful to God
Dry grass and trees - not faithful to God.
Places like Luke 23:31 has that sort of symbolism. Ezekiel 20:45-48 has those types of symbols..
Hail, fire are signs and symbols for His judgment
The earth, trees, grass symbols of His people as well as literal ‘things’..
Maybe revelation tells a story from resurrection to His coming that is told too literally in religious circles and not spiritually enough.
People with a ‘literal’ view may see something like the trumpets as pretty harsh but in the spiritual sense, they are wake up calls to those who wander from being faithful to God. A journey we all
take. A history lesson through to the end of time that hadnt happened in our ‘time’ yet.
A story of the church and the ‘church age’ when so many saythe church has nothing to do with revelation..
It is why there are lots of people with lots of different opinions..
The 1st trumpet ‘literal’ is a scary scene but symbolically it means 1/3 of His people (trees, green grass) was ‘burnt up’ and became dry and no longer worth anything to Him and wandered away.. He caused this but it really is due to their rejection of His Son.
Even something literal like the trumpets can seem to have a ‘symbolic’ meaning in light of His Gospel and not a dead end but a turn off to come back to Him.
The battle of amageddom is symbolic of a battle every person has to face in their life..
Reading revelation with a focus on the spiritual can change the entire tone and tenor of things like those trumpets and it reads as a very ‘his lovingkindness endures forever’ hopeful book.
Almost like they could be wake up calls all along a person’s journey..a bugle call..
Warnings of what lies ahead, spiritually in terms of blessings and curses.
But each person’s journey is different..
And people read revelation differently..
Without understanding Old Testament prophesy it will all be “symbolic” per whatever pre conceived notions one has. Especially Daniels prophesies of 490 years of which there are seven left. The 144,000 are literally 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel who will be protected during the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year tribulation.