Posted on 02/22/2015 10:27:36 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.(Romans 11:1-6)
Romans chapters nine through eleven are meant to be understood as one unified whole. If you were to just read Romans 9 and 10 and not eleven, you would be tempted t think that the God of the Bible is finished with His ancient people.
Romans 9 tells us that only a small believing remnant of Israel is Israel anyway, and as for the rest of the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they are sinker to Pharoah in that God has hardened their hearts, after years of their own resistance to His will.
Romans 10 tells us that Israel for the most part has stubbornly refused the free gift of Righteousness by faith in Jesus Messiah, instead seeking to establish a righteousness of their own, more in keeping with works based, self salvation. Furthermore Romans 10 tells us that Israel has no excuse, for the prophets, Apostles and the Messiah himself were all sent with the message of Righteousness by faith and substitutionary salvation, but Israel stubbornly refused to hear it.
Instead, Gentiles, who weren’t looking for Righteousness, have found it, when they heard the preaching of the Jewish Messiah, who loved them and gave himself for our sins. Now the Gentile world is flocking to the Jewish God, and drinking from Him, the “Fountain of Living Water”, whole the nation of Israel itself is drinking out of “broken cisterns” that hold no water.
But All day long the LORD hold’s out his hands to the disobedient and back talking Son, Israel.
But thankfully this passage which is a revelation of God, and a prophecy of the history which we are currently living, Doesn’t end with Romans 10.
“Has God cast away His people(utterly)”?
Perish the very thought of it! God is not through with the nation which is estranged from Him, He has a plan for them ,”For good and not evil, to give them an expected end”, as Jeremiah 29 prophesied.
Read the Song of Moses, or the 26th chapter of Leviticus, and see that God foresaw when he called Israel into existence that they would defect from Him, and go prodigal for centuries, and in the end return to Him to fulfill His plan for the world!
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.(Hosea 3:4-5)
Remember Elijah? He thought he was the last faithful Israelite, but God assured Him that HE(God) himself had reserved to himself seven thousand who would not bow the knee to Baal.
Of course Israel doesn’t deserve these favors! Israel is a microcosm of the whole world. If Israel doesn’t deserve grace, neither do you and I? If anyone has a problem with Israel, they have a problem with the grace of God.
This is the grace of God, in love choosing and preserving a believing remnant and insuring the survival and integrity of the holy nation forever. Obviously the church hasn’t replaced Israel! God knew all along what was going to happen. The climax of History will be the restoration and reinstatement of Israel as the sacred nation of Priests and teachers of the whole world. The mouth of the Lord hath spoken it!
Read and understand well the prophecy of Jeremiah,
Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. Moreover the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the Lord hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.(Jeremiah 33:20-27)
It would be more likely that the sun not rise and the stars not shine, than that God should ever cast away the “Seed of Jacob and David” his servant.God has a beautiful plan for Israel, and which will involve blessing and restoration to them and to the whole world.
Show any history that says Nero sent anyone to Patmos. He didn't. And that is only one or your problems with that. And Preterism is totally bunk.
“This generation (not 40 years, but rather the stock, the race)”
That’s an unwarranted interpretation forced upon the text that exists in no other context where Jesus referred to “this generation.”
Jesus was consistent in His use of the phrase, and in every instance His use indicated those who were His contemporaries: those alive at the same time He was on earth.
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, Matthew 11:16
“The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Matthew 12:41 (Jesus referring to Himself as the one who is greater.)
“The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. Matthew 12:42 (Jesus referring to Himself as the one who is greater.)
“Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:36
Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.” Mark 8:12
“To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? Luke 7:31
As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, “This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. Luke 11:29
“For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. Luke 11:30
“The Queen of the South will rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. Luke 11:31
“The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Luke 11:32
so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, Luke 11:50
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.’ Luke 11:51
“But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:25
Jesus is talking about the apostates and reprobates of His day, He is not condemning an entire race of people!
Can't be. The whole world did not see sign of Christ in the heavens, the stars didn't fall from the sky. the sun wasn't darkened, and the heavenly bodies were not shaken. The angels didn't sound a trumpet and gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. The gospel had not been preached to all nations.
>>Truly I tell you, some who are standing here<<
That's not what the Greek says. It says "some of those standing here". Some of those will be the generation that sees all the things I listed that haven't happened yet.
There is also in existence, a number of Syriac translations of the book of Revelation which have the following inscription: “The Revelation, which was made by God to John the Evangelist, in the island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero the Emperor.” Most of the Syriac translations, which are known as the “Peshito,” “Curetonian,” the “Philoexenian” and the “Harclean” are supposed to have been translated late in the first century or very early in the second, but the ones containing Revelation are not believed to be quite that old. The superscription on this manuscript does provide support that the dating of the Revelation goes back to the time of Nero. Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse (1845), Vol. 1, p. 267; J. W. Mc Garvey, Evidences of Christianity (Nashville, Gospel Advocate, 1886), pp. 34,78; Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics (1890), pp. 136, 138; James Murdock, Syriac New Testament, Peshitto Version, translated in 1852, published 1896. It is thought that the Peshitto Versions, which are dated at 150 AD, were based upon original autographs (original documents).
Clement (AD 150–215) makes the following statement supporting an early dating: “For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero” (Miscellanies 7:17). Clement seems to indicate that he believes that the Scriptures were completed by the end of Nero’s reign which ended in AD 68.
Epiphanies, AD 315–403, stated that the book of Revelation was written under Claudius [Nero] Caesar. This Roman ruler was emperor from AD 54 to AD 68.
Andreas of Capadocia, about AD 500, in a commentary on Revelation, dates the book as Neronian.
Arethas, about AD 540 assumes the book to have been written before the destruction of Jerusalem and that its contents was prophecy concerning the siege of Jerusalem.
http://christeternalchristianchurch.com/learningactivity39.htm
The church is Israel - for the first dozen or so years after Pentecost the only members were Jews. This early church is the remnant of Israel (and a larger remnant than was left after the destruction of the first Temple). Then, over time, people “of the Nations” were incorporated into (grafted into) this Jewish remnant. We are the fulfillment of that promise. Paul is very clear on this in Galatians, as is the writer of Hebrews. The old Covenant is fulfilled (completed) in Christ, with a new Covenant (Testament) taking its place. This is the mystery hid for ages until the fulfillment of time. And it is glorious in our eyes!
“Can’t be. The whole world did not see sign of Christ in the heavens, the stars didn’t fall from the sky. the sun wasn’t darkened, and the heavenly bodies were not shaken. The angels didn’t sound a trumpet and gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. The gospel had not been preached to all nations.”
Of course, only those with an extremely hyper-literal interpretation of such language are still looking for such events to occur. For the rest of us, who understand that this language is symbolic of socio-political upheaval and is consistently used to describe other such judgments in the OT (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, etc.), this language presents no problem for a 70AD fulfilment.
I strongly suggest that you go back to the OT and read how the prophets there describe the impending judgments of Israel, Judah, Jerusalem, and all the nations with whom they had dealings: Assyria, Babylon, Egypt, etc.
Irving Baxter, Tim LaHaye, Jack van Impe, and Hal Lindsay - to name a few - are not Biblical scholars. They are religious hucksters and charlatans.
Nope, impossible. He wrote from Patmos and Nero never sent anyone to Patmos. John was banished by Emperor Domician (81-95 A.D.) to the island of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelations. According to Revelation 2/3 of all men will die prior to Christ's return. Satan has NOT been chained where he can not influence and for sure wasn't prior to 70AD. In Revelation 1:7 John writes: "“Behold He cometh in the clouds and every eye shall see Him. And they also who pierced Him: and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him." If people think that has already happened they had better show the historical proof.
” >>Truly I tell you, some who are standing here<<
That’s not what the Greek says. It says “some of those standing here”. Some of those will be the generation that sees all the things I listed that haven’t happened yet.”
The Greek also adds “standing here”, which you conveniently omitted in your interpretation of that verse. A plain-meaning reading of the text - whether in Greek or English - makes clear as to whom Jesus was speaking: those who were standing within feet of Him.
John Roberts had to write “tax” into Obamacare to pass it. Futurists have to write future generations or “race” into the Bible to get people to believe their view; view that - not unlike Obamacare - is not supported by the plain, clear, and unambiguous language of the text.
No, I didn't. Here's the quote: "“some of those standing here”. You even copied it in your answer to me for crying out loud. Read my post again.
No it doesn't. "those standing here" refers to those who see all the things he listed earlier in that chapter. Those things haven't happened yet.
Yeah you can "symbolize" the entire scriptures away and make up anything you want. You make God out to be a liar by doing it.
>>I strongly suggest that you go back to the OT and read<<
I strongly suggest you go back and read the prophecy of Daniel and other prophecies where God promised to bring Israel back to the land He promised them just as is happening today.
>>Irving Baxter, Tim LaHaye, Jack van Impe, and Hal Lindsay<<
Don't know about them but scripture shows whoever you are listening to is way off. And if it's someone like Gentry we've been though his disillusions here on these forums before and all those who spread his nonsense didn't last long.
Whoever taught you that bunk needs to read scripture.
I ask because it seems as if he was unaware of the destruction of the temple.
Yeah, sure there are. And everyone has seen Christ coming, and all those who killed Him mourned, and 2/3 of all men on earth have been killed and it was so bad Christ returned to earth to put a stop to it. And Satan hasn't caused any problems on this earth for 1000 years and all has been peace and harmony right? Haven't seen that in any history books have you?
Now, let's see the evidence of those "Syriac translations of the book of Revelation" with those additions you claim. Surely they have been posted online as most everything else has.
As to your referring to writings of centuries later it's hearsay. There is no historical evidence of Nero banishing anyone to Patmos.
The site you sent me to has some serious problems with scripture as well.
I don't even want to begin on the Peshitta and it's problems. George Lamsa did his corruption of scripture on that also.
Your Preterist views have been dealt with here before. They don't match either scripture or history.
Why would he write about the destruction of Jerusalem? He was writing about "what is now" and "what is to come".
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Look at the "churches" he was told to write to. No "church" in Jerusalem? Jesus was sent to the Jews. He didn't address them at all? The only explanation is that they had already been dispersed and the Temple destroyed.
Acts 8:1
And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
The church was scattered in about 42 AD.
"In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord."
After that attack, it says there will be so many dead that it will take Israel seven months to bury them all.
Here is another that still needs to be fulfilled:
"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord" (Jeremiah 31)
And this one we have seen being fulfilled in this century and the last:
"However, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when it will no longer be said, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 15 but it will be said, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ For I will restore them to the land I gave their ancestors"
exactly.
“There are still numerous prophecies waiting to be fulfilled. Everything in Revelation for instance.”
Nope. Everything in Revelation has been fulfilled, right down to Vespasian’s legions encamped in the Valley of Meggido (Armageddon) on their southward march through Samaria to Jerusalem.
Christ’s kingdom is His church - which is His body - over which He is the head. If you are born again, congratulations! You’re already in His kingdom: a kingdom of heaven, not earth.
“those standing here” refers to those who see all the things he listed earlier in that chapter. Those things haven’t happened yet.”
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” Matthew 16:27-28
“I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. “And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14
Jesus Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father, from which He rules to this day. Stephen saw Him there just before he died: the world’s first Christian martyr:
But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” Acts 7:55-56
Stephen was one of the martyrs found under the altar in Revelation 6, though not named specifically:
And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held, and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?’ and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed—even as they. Revelation 6:9-11
And this returns us to Matthew 16:27-28: the judgment Christ promised those that were standing immediately before Him is the same vengeance promised to those who had died and were sheltered under the heavenly altar. It is the same judgment He pronounced over His enemies - the religious leaders - in Matthew 23, when He said this:
“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. Matthew 23:33-38
And this desolation happened in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, just as prophesied in Matthew 24!
“Those standing here” and “this generation” refer to people living at the time of Christ! None of these prophecies have the slightest thing in the world to do with people living 2,000 years later!
Futurists can continue to rewrite the Bible to support their beliefs, but it is they who make Christ out to be a liar, not preterists!
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