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Against Rome's Apostolic Succession Argument by Bullinger (Part 1)
Beggars All ^ | Dec 29,2013 | - James Swan

Posted on 02/16/2015 12:14:36 PM PST by RnMomof7

Sunday, December 29, 2013

Against Rome's Apostolic Succession Argument by Bullinger (Part 1)

Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575) was a Swiss Reformer and author of a popular writing entitled The Decades. This particular writing was influential in England, highly esteemed and used as a textbook of sorts for training English clergy. Included in The Decades is a section entitled Of The Holy Catholic Church, and included therein is Bullinger's refutation of Rome's apostolic succession argument (that Rome is the true church because of an historical succession of church authority that began with Peter). Here is the first part of Bullinger's argument:

Second, the succession of doctors or pastors of the Church does not prove anything of itself without the Word of God. The champions and defenders of the papistical church boast that they have a most certain mark of the apostolic Church, that is, in the continual succession of bishops which derives from Peter by Clement the First, and so to Clement the Seventh, and to Paul the Third who died recently, and so continuing to Julius the Third, who has only just been created pope. Moreover they add that all those members are cut off which separate themselves from that church in which alone that apostolic succession is found. And we do not deny that the right succession of pastors was of great weight in the primitive Church. For those who were then called pastors were pastors indeed, and executed the office of pastors. But what kind of pastors those have been for some time who out of the rabble of cardinals,

mitred bishops and sophisters have been called pastors of the church of Rome, only those are ignorant who are altogether without understanding. The prophet Zechariah heard these words spoken to him by the Lord: "Take to thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd; for lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not look for the thing that is lost, nor seek the tender lambs, nor heal that that is hurt, nor.feed that that standeth up: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their hoofs in pieces. Woe be to the idol shepherd that forsaketh the flock," etc. Therefore by their continual succession of bishops who do not teach the Word of God sincerely or execute the office and duty of pastors, these men do not prove any more than if they were to set before the eyes of the world a company, of idols. For who dare deny that many, indeed the majority of bishops of Rome since Gregory the Great were idols and wolves and devourers like those described by the prophet Zechariah? I ask then, what can the continual succession,cf such false pastors prove? indeed, did not the later ones fill almost the whole Church with the traditions of men, and partly oppress the Church of God, and partly persecute it? In the ancient church of the Israelites there was a continual order of succession of bishops, without any interruption from Aaron to Urias, who lived under Ahaz, and to other wicked high priests who also fell away from the Word of God: to the traditions of men, and indeed to idolatry. But for all that, that succession did not prove the idolatrous high-priests, with the church which adhered to them, to be the true high-priests of God and the true Church of God. For the true prophets of God, the sound and catholic fathers, who preached the Word of God alone apart from and indeed clean against all the traditions of men, were not able to reckon up any succession of priests to whom they themselves succeeded. Yet in spite of that, they were most excellent lights, and worthy members of the Church of God, and those who believed their doctrine were neither schismatics nor heretics, but even to this day are acknowledged to be the true Church of Christ. When Christ our Lord, the blessed Son of God, taught here on earth and gathered together his Church, the succession of high_priests ranged itself with his adversaries: but that did not mean that they were the rulers of the true Church of God, and Christ of the heretical church. The apostles of our Lord could not

allege for themselves and their doctrine an unbroken succession of high-priests: for they were ordained by the Lord, who was also himself created of God the High Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek, outside the succession of the order of Levi. Yet the Church which was gathered by them is acknowledged by all to be the true and holy Church. The apostles themselves would not allow any to be counted their true followers and successors but those who walked uprightly in the doctrine and way of Christ: for the saying of Paul is notable. and manifest: "Be ye followers of me, even as I am of Christ." And though he speaks these words to all the faithful, and not only to the ministers of God's Word, yet he would have the latter his followers like all other Christians, that is to say, every man in his vocation and calling. The same apostle, speaking at Miletum to the bishops of Asia, says amongst other things: "I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Moreover, of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things, to draw disciples after them." It is from the apostolic Church itself, indeed from the company or assembly of apostolic bishops and pastors, that Paul the apostle fetches out the wolves and devourers of the Church. But do you not think that these could have alleged the apostolic succession for themselves and their most corrupt cause, that is, that, they were descended from apostolic pastors? But since forsaking the truth they have fallen from the faith and doctrine of the apostles, their derivation and apostolic succession does not in any way help them. Therefore we conclude that of itself the continual succession of bishops does not prove anything, but on the contrary that succession which lacks the purity of evangelical and apostolic doctrine is not valid.

Source: Library of Christian Classics Vol. XXIV: Zwingli and Bullinger (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1953), pp. 309-311



TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: apostles; catholicism
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To: jobim
But as far as Christ is concerned, I couldn't be more in agreement with you. Only He is our salvation,

Did Christ save you on the cross? What do you mean by "salvation"

61 posted on 02/16/2015 5:08:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; RnMomof7; metmom; CynicalBear; daniel1212
The Assumption can be traced back at least to the fifth century in writing.

500 years?

500 years.

Let's put that in perspective, shall we?

It is 2015. Go back 500 years and it is 1515 AD. What is to stop someone from crafting a document today, claiming it represents a historical fact that was passed down by word of mouth, without error?

And yet your crowd finds Scripture somehow inadequate.

62 posted on 02/16/2015 5:18:13 PM PST by Gamecock (Joel Osteen is a minister of the Gospel like Captain Crunch is a Naval line officer.)
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To: Gamecock

Wouldn’t the fifth century be the 400s?


63 posted on 02/16/2015 5:19:27 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi

Just what can an ordinary citizen do about that? We can educate people about cults though. I think everyone on here knows what is happening in the world and can pray.


64 posted on 02/16/2015 5:24:34 PM PST by MamaB
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To: Salvation

Yes.

But isn’t that still 500 years?


65 posted on 02/16/2015 5:25:49 PM PST by Gamecock (Joel Osteen is a minister of the Gospel like Captain Crunch is a Naval line officer.)
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To: Gamecock; St_Thomas_Aquinas
The Assumption can be traced back at least to the fifth century in writing.

Let's put that in perspective, shall we?

From 549 on the assumption.

"The notion of Mary's assumption into heaven has left no trace in the literature of the third, much less of the second century. M. Jugie, the foremost authority on this question, concluded in his monumental study: 'The patristic tradition prior to the Council of Nicaea does not furnish us with any witness about the Assumption.'" (Raymond Brown, et al., Mary In The New Testament [Mahwah: Paulist Press, 1978], p. 266) More .

The Roman Catholic writer Eamon Duffy states that,

, ‘there is, clearly, no historical evidence whatever for it ...’ (Eamon Duffy, What Catholics Believe About Mary (London: Catholic Truth Society, 1989), p. 17)

It is quite obvious the NT church did not see the Assumption as an essential doctrine. But Rome can "remember" what is needed when lacking actual warrant for from where it should be found.

Ratzinger writes (emp. mine), Before Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was defined, all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion. Our teachers' answer was emphatically negative . What here became evident was the one-sidedness, not only of the historical, but of the historicist method in theology. “Tradition” was identified with what could be proved on the basis of texts. Altaner, the patrologist from Wurzburg…had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the 5C; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the “apostolic tradition. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared.

This argument is compelling if you understand “tradition” strictly as the handing down of fixed formulas and texts [or actual ancient reliable records] …But if you conceive of “tradition” as the living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still not grasp (cf. Jn 16:12-13), then subsequent “remembering” (cf. Jn 16:4, for instance) can come to recognize what it has not caught sight of previously [meaning the needed evidence was absent] and was already handed down in the original Word,” - J. Ratzinger, Milestones (Ignatius, n.d.), 58-59.

The famous Protestant historian Philip Schaff writes,

"It [the Assumption of Mary] rests, however, on a purely apocryphal foundation. The entire silence of the apostles and the primitive church teachers respecting the departure of Mary stirred idle curiosity to all sorts of inventions, until a translation like Enoch's and Elijah's was attributed to her. In the time of Origen some were inferring from Luke ii. 35, that she had suffered martyrdom. Epiphanius will not decide whether she died and was buried, or not. Two apocryphal Greek writings de transitu Mariae, of the end of the fourth or beginning of the fifth century, and afterward pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite and Gregory of Tours († 595), for the first time contain the legend that the soul of the mother of God was transported to the heavenly paradise by Christ and His angels in presence of all the apostles, and on the following morning her body also was translated thither on a cloud and there united with the soul. Subsequently the legend was still further embellished, and, besides the apostles, the angels and patriarchs also, even Adam and Eve, were made witnesses of the wonderful spectacle" (section 83).

Roman Catholic scholar Michael O'Carroll explains that Epiphanius, a church father of the fourth century, lived near where Mary had lived, yet he denies that anybody has any apostolic tradition regarding the end of Mary's life:

"In a later passage, he [Epiphanius] says that she [Mary] may have died and been buried, or been killed - as a martyr. 'Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and he can do whatever he desires; for her end no one knows.'...A Palestinian with opportunity for some research, E. does not speak of a bodily resurrection and remains noncommittal on the way Mary's life ended. He nowhere denies the Assumption, or admits the possibility of Assumption without death, for he has found no sign of death or burial. He suggests several different hypotheses and draws no firm conclusion." (Theotokos [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, Inc., 1988], p. 135)

William Webster finds, The first mention of it is by Epiphanius in 377 A.D. and he specifically states that no one knows what actually happened to Mary. He lived near Palestine and if there were, in fact, a tradition in the Church generally believed and taught he would have affirmed it. But he clearly states that ‘her end no one knows.’ These are his words:

But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried ... Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] ... For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence ... The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain ... Did she die, we do not know ... Either the holy Virgin died and was buried ... Or she was killed ... Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40).

In addition to Epiphanius, there is Jerome who also lived in Palestine and does not report any tradition of an assumption. Isidore of Seville, in the seventh century, echoes Epiphanius by saying that no one has any information at all about Mary’s death. The patristic testimony is therefore non-existent on this subject. Even Roman Catholic historians readily admit this fact:

In these conditions we shall not ask patristic thought—as some theologians still do today under one form or another—to transmit to us, with respect to the Assumption, a truth received as such in the beginning and faithfully communicated to subsequent ages. Such an attitude would not fit the facts...Patristic thought has not, in this instance, played the role of a sheer instrument of transmission’ (Juniper B. Carol, O.F.M., ed., Mariology, Vol. I (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1955), p. 154).

The idea of the bodily assumption of Mary is first expressed in certain transitus–narratives of the fifth and sixth centuries. Even though these are apocryphal they bear witness to the faith of the generation in which they were written despite their legendary clothing. The first Church author to speak of the bodily ascension of Mary, in association with an apocryphal transitus B.M.V., is St. Gregory of Tours’ (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp. 209–210).

Juniper Carol explicitly states that the Transitus literature is a complete fabrication which should be rejected by any serious historian:

The account of Pseudo-Melito, like the rest of the Transitus literature, is admittedly valueless as history, as an historical report of Mary’s death and corporeal assumption; under that aspect the historian is justified in dismissing it with a critical distaste (Juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. l (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), p. 150) .

In 494 to 496 A.D. Pope Gelasius issued a decree entitled Decretum de Libris Canonicis Ecclesiasticis et Apocryphis. This decree officially set forth the writings which were considered to be canonical and those which were apocryphal and were to be rejected...In the list of apocryphal writings which are to be rejected Gelasius signifies the following work: Liber qui apellatur Transitus, id est Assumptio Sanctae Mariae, Apocryphus (Pope Gelasius 1, Epistle 42, Migne Series, M.P.L. vol. 59, Col. 162). This specifically means the Transitus writing of the assumption of Mary. At the end of the decree he states that this and all the other listed literature is heretical and that their authors and teachings and all who adhere to them are condemned and placed under eternal anathema which is indissoluble....

Prior to the seventh and eighth centuries there is complete patristic silence on the doctrine of the Assumption. But gradually, through the influence of numerous forgeries which were believed to be genuine, coupled with the misguided enthusiasm of popular devotion, the doctrine gained a foothold in the Church. The Dictionary of Christian Antiquities gives the following history of the doctrine:

In the 3rd of 4th century there was composed a book, embodying the Gnostic and Collyridian traditions as to the death of Mary, called De Transitu Virginis Mariae Liber. This book exists still and may be found in the Bibliotheca Patrum Maxima (tom. ii. pt. ii. p. 212)....The Liber Transitu Mariae contains already the whole of the story of the Assumption. But down to the end of the 5th century this story was regarded by the Church as a Gnostic or Collyridian fable, and the Liber de Transitu was condemned as heretical by the Decretum de Libris Canonicis Ecclesiasticus et Apocryphis, attributed to pope Gelasius, A.D. 494. How then did it pass across the borders and establish itself within the church, so as to have a festival appointed to commemorate it? In the following manner: In the sixth century a great change passed over the sentiments and the theology of the church in reference to the Theotokos—an unintended but very noticeable result of the Nestorian controversies, which in maintaining the true doctrine of the Incarnation incidentally gave strong impulse to what became the worship of Mary. In consequence of this change of sentiment, during the 6th and 7th centuries (or later):

1)The Liber de Transitu, though classed by Gelasius with the known productions of heretics came to be attributed by one...to Melito, an orthodox bishop of Sardis, in the 2nd century, and by another to St. John the Apostle. 2) A letter suggesting the possibility of the Assumption was written and attributed to St. Jerome (ad Paulam et Eustochium de Assumptione B. Virginis, Op. tom. v. p. 82, Paris, 1706). 3) A treatise to prove it not impossible was composed and attributed to St. Augustine (Op. tom. vi. p. 1142, ed. Migne). 4) Two sermons supporting the belief were written and attributed to St. Athanasius (Op. tom. ii. pp. 393, 416, ed., Ben. Paris, 1698). 5) An insertion was made in Eusebius’s Chronicle that ‘in the year 48 Mary the Virgin was taken up into heaven, as some wrote that they had had it revealed to them.’

Thus the authority of the names of St. John, of Melito, of Athanasius, of Eusebius, of Augustine, of Jerome was obtained for the belief by a series of forgeries readily accepted because in accordance with the sentiment of the day, and the Gnostic legend was attributed to orthodox writers who did not entertain it. But this was not all, for there is the clearest evidence (1) that no one within the church taught it for six centuries, and (2) that those who did first teach it within the church borrowed it directly from the book condemned by pope Gelasius as heretical.

R.P.C. Hanson gives the following summation of the teaching of the Assumption, emphasizing the lack of patristic and Scriptural support for it and affirming that it originated not with the Church but with Gnosticism:

This dogma has no serious connection with the Bible at all, and its defenders scarcely pretend that it has. It cannot honestly be said to have any solid ground in patristic theology either, because it is frist known among Catholic Christians in even its crudest form only at the beginning of the fifth century, and then among Copts in Egypt whose associations with Gnostic heresy are suspiciously strong; indeed it can be shown to be a doctrine which manifestly had its origin among Gnostic heretics. The only argument by which it is defended is that if the Church has at any time believed it and does now believe it, then it must be orthodox, whatever its origins, because the final standard of orthodoxy is what the Church believes. More .

66 posted on 02/16/2015 6:16:32 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: MamaB
Why should anyone read nonsense? It is not Biblical.

Hey MamaB.

67 posted on 02/16/2015 6:18:27 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: jobim
There are answers to everything they raise - this is the beauty of TRUTH being our hallmark and polestar.

Where are you hiding them??? I haven't ever seen any...Unless you guys claiming 'you are wrong' is a legitimate answer...

68 posted on 02/16/2015 6:46:59 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Mark17

Hey Sweetie. How are you? We are supposed to get down to 4 degrees Wednesday night. We are tired of this cold, dreary weather and ready for spring. My daughter and her husband went to NO for Mardi Gras.


69 posted on 02/16/2015 6:59:29 PM PST by MamaB
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To: RnMomof7
Of course. Only through Christ's perfect immolation was mankind redeemed. That is salvation, the free, unearned, unmerited free gift, which we receive only through the grace of Christ Himself.

Where you & I might differ is on whether or not that saving grace can be lost by us, and I believe you must know that Catholics do believe it can. A free gift can most certainly be rejected, bringing no benefit to the intended recipient.
70 posted on 02/16/2015 7:12:50 PM PST by jobim (.)
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To: Iscool

I’m not hiding them - they are readily ascertainable any number of places. I am not criticizing you, but probably the answers you find you do not like. I trust you are seeking TRUTH, and I believe God will reward this effort on the part of all His seekers.


71 posted on 02/16/2015 7:20:54 PM PST by jobim (.)
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To: RnMomof7

Save for later.


72 posted on 02/16/2015 7:22:41 PM PST by strongbow
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To: MamaB
We are supposed to get down to 4 degrees Wednesday night. We are tired of this cold, dreary weather and ready for spring.

4 degrees huh? That is hard to take. It is 84 here right now. That is also hard to take. We are ready for spring too. 🔊 😄😃😇😊🆒 Keep preaching.

73 posted on 02/16/2015 7:22:48 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: RnMomof7
Wonderful, patient response to this Mary nonsense.

I look forward to the day I meet Mary in heaven. I've always wondered if she knew who Jesus really was before the resurrection. I'm inclined to believe she thought He was a prophet, maybe the Messiah, but I doubt she had any idea He was God in man.

74 posted on 02/16/2015 7:26:15 PM PST by wmfights
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To: Mark17

AL is not supposed to have weather like this. Most of us think that if it is this cold, we should have some snow. Not any ice though. Yes sir. Will do so, sir.


75 posted on 02/16/2015 7:50:16 PM PST by MamaB
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To: avenir
I bet Aunt Elizabeth was a real blessing in your life!

She was a real blessing. I only got to know her as an adult when I moved to Texas. I had never met her before that. We never did try to convince the other that either of us had the right belief in God. It was a mutual respect that neither one of us wanted to hurt each others feelings so we never fought over theology.

She was the type of person who did not know how to hold a grudge. I learned a lot from her.

76 posted on 02/16/2015 8:21:52 PM PST by Slyfox (I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever)
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To: RnMomof7
This speaks to a very critical issue in the Christian community even to this day. The succession that the laying on of hands ritual was to ensure in the early church was NOT some automatic handing down of an office of Apostle and the authority intrinsic with that office, but a succession of handing down of the truth. Had even blessed Peter refused the correction given to him by God, through Paul, concerning the uproar caused by the Judaizers about the Gentile Christians being burdened with observing the Mosaic law including circumcision, he would have NOT remained a leader of the church.

Even nearly two thousand years later we can know the same truth that was there from the start because we have the faithful witness of the Scriptures with the teachings once delivered unto the saints - it doesn't change. This is how we can know, should any person claim to be a minister of Jesus Christ, whether or not they are bringing correct doctrine. Scripture is the authority that ALL churches of Christ must be in submission to. The church is to be the pillar and buttress of this truth - its supporter, not its inventor. It will be through this that the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth.

77 posted on 02/16/2015 10:20:56 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: onyx

But you had to comment that you were ignoring it? Hmm...


78 posted on 02/16/2015 10:23:22 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: jobim; RnMomof7

Guess what? This is an OPEN Religion Forum thread. That means it’s open for discussion. If you disagree with the OP and think you have a better argument, well bring it on. That’s the beauty of truth, isn’t it?


79 posted on 02/16/2015 10:29:13 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi; RnMomof7

Christian brethren can’t multitask???


80 posted on 02/16/2015 10:31:28 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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