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Hermas – a primary eyewitness source regarding the leadership structure of early church at Rome
Beggars All ^
| October 05, 2010
| John Bugay
Posted on 02/15/2015 10:17:53 AM PST by RnMomof7
Hermas a primary eyewitness source regarding the leadership structure of early church at Rome
Paul writes to the church at Rome without addressing a leader. He writes in the years 57-58, a date that is very firm in history, in a letter that is not contested. Excuses are made as to why there is no mention of Peter in Rome, even though the church has been attested in Rome perhaps from Acts 2, when visitors for Rome were present at/saved at Pentecost. In Acts 18, Aquila and Priscilla are expelled from Rome by the edict of Claudius, attested in secular history, 49 ad.
So the church at Rome is attested long before Paul writes and there is no leader there.
Ignatius, who knows and writes about Bishops in the east, writes to Rome without mentioning a Bishop. There is no question the city of Rome is important. It is the capital of the empire. This church which presides in the place of the district of the Romans
Shepherd of Hermas: According to the Muratorian Canon, the oldest (ca. AD-180-200?) known list of the New Testament and early Christian writings, Hermas was the brother of Pius, bishop of Rome (ca 140-154). So he was writing earlier than Hegesippus, whose list of bishops is said to be the first one (c. 166), and earlier than Irenaeus (c.180). Hermas was, in fact, listed in the Muratorian Canon as a book to be read in the churches [i.e., it was liturgical].
As I slept, brothers and sisters, a revelation was given to me by a very handsome young man, who said to me, Who do you think the elderly woman from whom you received the little book was? I said The Sibyl. You are wrong, he said. She is not. Then who is she? I said. The church, he replied. I said to him, why then is she elderly? Because, he said, she was created before all things; therefore she is elderly, and for her sake the world was formed.
Afterwards I saw a vision in my house. The elderly woman came and asked me if I had already given the little book to the elders (presbuteroi, plural). I said that I had not given it. You have done well, she said, for I have words to add. So when I finish all the words they will be made known to all the elect through you. Therefore you will write two little books, and you will send one to Clement and one to Grapte. Then Clement will send it to the cities abroad, because that is his job. But Grapte will instruct the widows and orphans. But you yourself will read it to this city [Rome], along with the elders (presbuteroi) who preside (proistamenoi plural leadership) over the church." (Vis 2.4)
Roger Collins, Keepers of the Keys of Heaven: A History of the Papacy, (New York: Basic Books, 2008), notes The author of the Epistle of Clement may have been the man of this name later described as the person responsible for drafting communications sent behalf of Christians of Rome to other churches. If this Clement did compose 1 Clement, then it certainly would be understandable why the Corinthian church would have thought they received a letter from Clement (even though the name of Clement does not appear within that letter. Rather, it is from the church of God that sojourns in Rome).
But Hermas could not be more clear. There is a plurality of presbyters who preside over the church at Rome. This is no fuzzy mention, as in Ignatius, of a church in a place of honor. This is a clear explanation for the argument from silence in Pauls letter to the Romans, in the absence of a clear leader in both 1 Clement and Ignatius.
Hermas reiterates the structure of this leadership, and the fact that they are not leading, but rather that they fight among themselves. He calls them children.
Look therefore to the coming judgment. You, therefore, who have more than enough, seek out those who are hungry, until the tower is finished. For after the tower is finished, you may want to do good, but you will not have the chance. Beware, therefore, you who exult in your wealth, lest those in need groan, and their groaning rise up to the Lord, and you together with your good things be shut outside the door of the tower. Now, therefore, I say to you [tois plural] who lead the church and occupy the seats of honor: do not be like the sorcerers. For the sorcerers carry their drugs in bottles, but you carry your drug and poison in your heart. You are calloused and do not want to cleanse your hearts and to mix your wisdom together in a clean heart, in order that you may have mercy from the great King. Watch out, therefore, children, lest these divisions of yours [among you elders] deprive you of your life. How is it that you desire to instruct Gods elect, while you yourselves have no instruction? Instruct one another, therefore, and have peace among yourselves, in order that I too may stand joyfully before the Father and give an account on behalf of all of you to your Lord. (Vis 3.9)
Hermas here is chastising the multiple leaders of the church at Rome. This is important to note because Hermas identifies himself as a slave (Vis. 1.1). It will not do to say that this is a group of priests who work for a bishop. The entire group "presides."
Yet here, in the leadership of the church of Rome, there are multiple elders who "preside"; they are acting like sorcerers. They exult in their wealth. They take the seats of honor. They want to teach, but they are guilty themselves of having no instruction.
This is very clear writing. Very clear reporting of what the church was like. For those of you who want to understand what the leadership structure of the church at Rome was like, it is hard to find a better primary source witness than Hermas. [Please pay no attention to the fact that there are many scholars whose work corroborates what Hermas says here. This is a post about primary sources.]
TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: catholicism; history; papacy; protvsrc
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To: metmom
41
posted on
02/15/2015 7:33:01 PM PST
by
GeronL
To: daniel1212
At least you care consistent with the implicit assent Rome and cults call for, but as the basis for your assurance of Truth cannot be the weight of Scriptural substantiation, then it seems it must be based upon the premise of perpetual magisterial infallibility, and thus papal infallibility. Is that not correct? What you bind on Eaarth will be bound in Heaven, what you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven.....given that promise, do you really think that God would allow the church to make an error???....Nope, He promised that He would protect her from that and so far He is doing just fine.
42
posted on
02/15/2015 7:45:06 PM PST
by
terycarl
(common sense prevails over all)
To: ealgeone
43
posted on
02/15/2015 7:46:04 PM PST
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: RnMomof7
There was no "pope", no priesthood, no mass, no 7 sacraments , no "holy water".. no assumption or immaculate conception..no prayer to saints.. those are all the works of men Sure there were....Peter was the Pope (titular head of the new church)...Mass was insstituted at the Last Supper....All 7 Sacraments had been instituted by Christ...Holy water is a sacramental and I don't know how it came to be..(irrelevant)....The Assumption and Immaculate Conception, while being facts, had not yet been declared as Dogma but with the assurance of Christ that in such matters they could not err, the Church formally declared them to be part of scripture.
44
posted on
02/15/2015 7:51:30 PM PST
by
terycarl
(common sense prevails over all)
To: RnMomof7
The people at my church sure do. We follow along with what he is preaching from.
45
posted on
02/15/2015 7:57:31 PM PST
by
MamaB
To: Salvation
What do you doubt that is true?
46
posted on
02/15/2015 8:34:02 PM PST
by
ealgeone
To: terycarl
Please see Pope Urban II's version of Christian jihad. Kinda kills your argument.
We could also point to the worship of Mary by cathicism.
47
posted on
02/15/2015 8:36:22 PM PST
by
ealgeone
To: ealgeone
48
posted on
02/15/2015 8:37:43 PM PST
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: Arlis
Agreed. With you. The second item is discipleship, one on one, or one on very few at one time.
49
posted on
02/15/2015 9:27:01 PM PST
by
imardmd1
(Fiat Lux)
To: terycarl
What you bind on Eaarth will be bound in Heaven, what you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven.....given that promise, do you really think that God would allow the church to make an error???....Nope, He promised that He would protect her from that and so far He is doing just fine. That raises more questions:
Do you believe the popes and councils have never erred or contradicted themselves in what they wrote and required RCs to do? So that you are bound to obey all such?
Or is this restricted to a minority of teachings, and so you may disagree with those that are not as they may be in error?
Do you have an infallible list that tells you all the infallible teachings? Or is this subject to interpretation?
Is the CCC infallible so that it never may be in error or contradict itself? Is it or other RC teachings subject to interpretation by those Rome holds as members, without discipline?
And since the power to bind and to loose was also given to the OT magisterium, with disobedience resulting in death, (Dt. 17:8-13) and in Mt. 18:15-20 applies to judicial actions in personal disputes, and beyond that spiritually applies to all believers, then why do you think this is unique to the Roman magisterium, and means it cannot err?
Since the basis for your assurance of Truth - that Rome cannot err - is what Scripture says, then how are you different from an evangelical whose basis for assurance of Truth is the weight of Scriptural substantiation?
Is your RC argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)
And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God?
Thanks for helping us to better understand RC reasoning.
50
posted on
02/15/2015 10:36:40 PM PST
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: ealgeone
Have no problem with a few questions asked in love. Especially if you are not likely to see the person again.
But if you know you are likely to have time with the person in the future, there will be plenty of opportunities to find out where a person is in reality - and can share accordingly.
What I have a problem with is an inquisition-type interrogating of every person you meet who says they are a Christian. That was my point.
And it doesn’t matter if they are Catholic or Baptist. Either can simply be a church-goer who doesn’t personally know the Lord.
I’ve learned that pre-judging others is harmful - and how often we are wrong in our pre-judgments.....
One of the scariest things in scripture and the very words of Jesus is that we will be judged with the judgment with which we have judged others.............
51
posted on
02/16/2015 5:12:23 AM PST
by
Arlis
To: Salvation
Regarding the fifth marian dogma......
The proclamation of the Dogma of Mary Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate by the Holy Father will enable the Mother of Jesus to shower the world with a historic outpouring of grace, redemption, and peace in a new and dynamic wayan event which Marian apparitions like Fatima refer to as the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/
Just like the other marian dogmas....if enough people want it the rcc will do it.
There is NOTHING in the Bible to support any of this false doctrine the rcc is considering on this proposed dogma or the other marian dogmas.
Mary is fast usurping the roles of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Based on some of the quotes I provided, which no catholic so far as denied or disavowed, she already has.
52
posted on
02/16/2015 5:15:19 AM PST
by
ealgeone
To: Arlis
>>If I find true fellowship with one who loves the Lord Jesus, our heavenly Father, I will rejoice in that.<<
The stern questions in your story may have been the wrong approach and could have been handled differently however the rest of your story caused me some concern. Mormons believe in Jesus as do Jehovah's Witness. There are many who claim to believe in Jesus but don't abide in His teaching. We are given a rather stern warning about "fellowship" with them.
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
You mentioned "unity of the Spirit" as needing to be preserved first and I agree. There can be no "unity of the Spirit" with those who do not "abide in the doctrine of Christ". You used Ephesians 4:3 which says: "being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit". That would mean unity of the teachings of the same Spirit who teaches the same as Jesus taught. Mormons don't teach what Jesus taught nor do Jehovah's Witness. Jesus didn't teach about praying to people who have died nor elevating Mary over men. Then you made this statement:
>>All believers possess the unity of the Spirit as the same Spirit indwells us all...the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Christ.<<
All believers" All what believers? Mormons or Jehovah's Witness aren't listening to the same Spirit. Those who teach something other than what Jesus taught aren't of the same Spirit. There can be no "unity of the Spirit" with someone who teaches something other than what Jesus taught as that wouldn't be the same Spirit. And as John said we would be "participating in his evil deeds" if we even wish him God's speed. It seems to me that it's paramount that we "test the spirits to see whether they are from God" before we think we have "unity of the Spirit".
53
posted on
02/16/2015 5:39:59 AM PST
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: terycarl
I’ll say one thing is for sure. You are a believer in the Roman Catholic Church.
54
posted on
02/16/2015 5:45:36 AM PST
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: CynicalBear
I don’t disagree with anything you wrote here, but if I had included everything you wrote, that would have lead to 100 other things “needing to be said/addressed” and the post would have been endless.
55
posted on
02/16/2015 5:57:21 AM PST
by
Arlis
To: Arlis
LOL I hear ya! Been there done that.
56
posted on
02/16/2015 6:22:07 AM PST
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: CynicalBear
“..falsehoods of Catholicism...”
This is in poor taste as Coptic Christians are being beheaded for the faith. Although they split from Rome in 451 A.D., they retain their belief in the sacraments and their Love of Mary, the Blessed Mother; beliefs that in your opinion are falsehoods.
This hate filled mocking of beliefs that you do not agree with is extremely obnoxious as Christians are being killed for these exact beliefs.
To: stonehouse01
Being killed for a belief says nothing about that belief being the belief on the Jesus of scripture and what He taught.
58
posted on
02/16/2015 7:16:25 AM PST
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: CynicalBear
Felt the need to add a tagline.......
59
posted on
02/16/2015 7:23:17 AM PST
by
Arlis
(A "Sacred Cow-Tipping Christian")
To: CynicalBear
That’s not the point; you are hating on your fellow Christians when there is enough hatred out there.
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