Posted on 02/08/2015 5:56:52 AM PST by infool7
BTW, I am not anti-Catholic. I have Catholics in my family who are truly born-again. But even some of them are beginning to see that the Catholic Church is not as you proclaim it.
“838 is basically an admission that the Catholic Church is NOT the only place for Salvation.”
CCC 836-837 and CCC 846-848 shows your interpretation to be incorrect.
“BTW, I am not anti-Catholic.”
I don’t believe you.
“I have Catholics in my family who are truly born-again.”
Your view of your family tells me nothing.
“But even some of them are beginning to see that the Catholic Church is not as you proclaim it.”
No, they are simply mistakenly believing as you are.
Thank you.
The problem is your position requires one believes the Catholic church is the final authority on how salvation is provided. Scripture (my final authority) does not teach the church (pick your definition of church) is required. Only Jesus is required, nothing more or nothing less.
“The problem is your position requires one believes the Catholic church is the final authority on how salvation is provided.”
In the general, no, only in the particular. The problem is that you already dismissed they idea of the general. The problem is your apparent misunderstanding of the reality of the Church.
“Scripture (my final authority) does not teach the church (pick your definition of church) is required.”
Again, there’s that apparent misunderstanding of the reality of the Church...and scripture for that matter.
“Only Jesus is required, nothing more or nothing less.”
Yet you’re relying on scripture as your “final authority” rather than Jesus. And at the same time you dismiss any relying on the Church. If you figure out the obvious problem with your logic, let me know.
Correct, and DA Carson the renowned Greek scholar explains exactly why your inferential conclusion is wrong.
The church that never changes????
Say it ain't so.....
Not likely.....
Top 10 Most Wicked Popes
http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/
1. Liberius, reigned 352-66 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
2. Honorius I, reigned 625-638 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
3. Stephen VI, reigned 896-89 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
4. John XII, reigned 955-964 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
5. Benedict IX, reigned 1032-1048 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
6. Boniface VIII, reigned 1294-1303 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
7. Urban VI, reigned 1378-1389 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
8. Alexander VI, reigned 1492-1503 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
9. Leo X, reigned 1513-1521 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
10. Clement VII, reigned 1523-1524 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
Top 10 Worst Popes in History
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-worst-popes-in-history.php
1. Pope Alexander VI (1431 – 1503)
2. Pope John XII (c. 937 – 964)
3. Pope Benedict IX (c. 1012 – 1065/85)
4. Pope Sergius III (? – 911)
5. Pope Stephen VI (? – 897)
6. Pope Julius III (1487 – 1555)
7. Pope Urban II (ca. 1035 – 1099)
8. Pope Clement VI (1291 – 1352)
9. Pope Leo X (1475 – 1521)
10. Pope Boniface VIII (c. 1235 – 1303)
I wrote: “Christ and His Body are one.”
You wrote: “Not likely.....”
But the Bible says - and you supposedly believe in sola scriptura: “Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.”
Yet, He, GOD HIMSELF, also “...called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal.”
I understand your view of "the reality of the Church". It is simply unconvincing.
1 Corinthians 5:1-13 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
That precludes taking communion with someone like that.
2 John 1:4-11 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
Titus 1:5-16 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
1 Timothy 3:1-13 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 5:19-24 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Well said! The prideful and arrogant leadership in most organizations that call themselves churches today is pure carnal pride.
That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading it. The mystical paganism just screams out.
The hypocrisy of Catholicism.
Impossible. Both scripturally and historically. John wrote the book of Revelation approx 96AD
The Temple Priest and Sanhedrin {not all but a majority it seems} had turned the Temple and sacrifices into a business. They controlled the prices for sin in effect by the animals they sold which were inferior and prices inflated. IOW it was spiritual blackmail & extortion with the priest controlling mans relationship and offerings for forgiveness etc with GOD.
GOD saw mans helplessness. In His Mercy and Love GOD sent Jesus to establish a New Blood Covenant that reconciled man One ON One with Him forever through Jesus Christ. Jesus said what you need ask The Father in my name. He didn't mean a Priest He meant GOD.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit as our personal Intercessor & Teacher dwelling within us spiritually. The Third of the Holy Trinity who communicates for us when words can not. The One teaches us and gives us revelation of truth not dependent of men.
The Jew as a nation rejected it thus They Were Still Under The Laws and The Temple Priest Rituals. The exception being the Jews who believed, received Christ, & converted to Christianity. There were no priest among the Apostles nor Popes. They called themselves Brothers in Christ.
A preacher like the Apostle Paul is being a shepherd over flocks he is feeding in churches he helped to set up their worship services. Paul gave them The Gospel Message and helped set up a very basic SIMPLE easy to abide in order in the church for the preachers, deacons, elders, and members as to expected conduct etc. A guideline many Protestant churches follow and unfortunately some have as of late abandoned for Political Correctness.
Is there salvation outside the church buildings? Yes. Many sheep the Lord has found wandering elsewhere and called them. Is there salvation outside of Jesus Christ by any other means including a church membership or church name? NO! Only the acceptance of Jesus Christ and HIS Baptism a spiritual one John The Baptist spoke of can save us from hell. Brother Jones of First Baptist can Baptize someone as well as Father Smith of the RCC. Their Baptism saves no one as it is an act of obedience and public profession of faith After The Fact of salvation. That is why Baptism of infants should not be done.
Salvation depends on person willfully accepting Jesus Christ. An infant doesn't have that understanding nor for that matter an infant does not know sin as sin, has not heard The Gospel, and is not accountable until conviction of sin comes upon their hearts. That is usually in teens for many and for some young adults.
Salvation is a Spiritual rebirth being born again in spirit by receiving Christ as Lord and Savior. It is this way so no man can no longer by mans demands deprive another of this. We are reconciled to GOD through Jesus Christ only. We don't need too and should not ask of the resting spirits departed of this earth for their intercession. The Holy Spirit acts for us, GOD hears us, and because of Jesus sacrifice for us accepts our prayer we say directly too him ourselves in Jesus name.
Would eternal rest of the departed ones from us be such by be being disturbed by persons in this world and seeing the woes, hurts, and crisis of even ones we loved? NO. They have been separated, taken out of this physical world and it's pains and woes, unable to know the happenings thereof, because of a separation GOD placed there before the days of Abraham. Abraham was asked to intercede for live brothers by a dead man in hell. Abraham explained it could not be done and why. The Angels are a different matter but even to or through them we should not pray.
Back to Priest. The early churches had no Priest because that order was no more. Believers meaning also as Christ disciples we are instructed to spread The Gospel. They weren't told to build new Temples and establish new Priest for those Temples. Christ meant what He said when He talked of tearing down the Temple and rebuilding it in three days. The New Temple Christ established is within us and Christ is our Priest sent to us from GOD. Thus His words to Peter after Peters profession of Christ as Son Of GOD & Savior. The new church founded on GOD's Revelation to man through The Holy Spirit. That is the new church established solely by Christ obedience, fulfillment of all laws, fulfillment of prophecies, His sacrifice once and for all for sins as the sacrificial Lamb given one time for the sins of all who will accept, accomplished at the cross when He said "It is finished" and began anew when His resurrection was completed. He alone is worthy. To Him be the Glory. Not mans earthly founded physical establishments. No church saves anyone.
No person can save anyone else nor can anyone pray somosne out of hell. They made their choice. When we die we are either with The Lord or in hell. Either /Or no in between. No Limbo. No purging. The Blood of Jesus Christ alone purifies us. That is a One on One matter solely between the person and Jesus Christ & the acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior or the rejection thereof. Believe as the thief on the cross, believe what Jesus told Nicodemus, and by faith through GOD's Grace salvation is received free of charge. The Gates of Hell can not stop it from happening nor can any person on earth deny someone this if the person ask of The Lord.
And it's an hour past my bed time :>}
“I understand your view of “the reality of the Church”.”
I don’t think you do.
“It is simply unconvincing.”
No, it isn’t.
Your post in no way actually responds to what I posted. Jesus chose Judas to be one of the Twelve. If that is the case, and it is, we should be surprised there were some bad popes. And the existence of some bad popes many centuries ago says nothing about the Church in itself because we know the Apostles themselves had a “devil” among them even though chosen by God Himself.
Your appeal to DA Carson as a "renowned Greek scholar" is fallacious and misleading. DA Carson was NOT analysing the Greek but was making a common error of converting Greek to Aramaic then trying to formulate and argument from the Aramaic. There is NO proof that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic only speculation but actually makes no differenc. The FACT of the matter is that the Holy Spirit inspired the New Testament to be written in Greek, a language that makes a distinct difference between Petra and Petros.
Translating the Greek which was inspired by the Holy Spirit into Aramaic or Hebrew to try to formulate an argument is second guessing the Holy Spirit and changing what He inspired to be written. Not a wise move.
There is also another problem with the DA Carson attempt to work Aramaic into the argument. Even if Jesus was speaking Aramaic it proves nothing. While Kepha can be translated Petros in Greek it is not proven that Jesus used Kepha for petra as there are other words in both Hebrew and Aramaic for petra. Even DA Carson admits such as seen here
Your appeal to Carson is worthless.
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