Shut up
Posted on 01/31/2015 8:43:45 PM PST by Morgana
My new book, The Protestant's Dilemma, shows in a myriad of ways why Protestantism is implausible. We sifted through many arguments to boil the book down to the most essential. A few chapters didn't make the cut but are still good enough to share. Here's one of them.
If Protestantism is true,
There's no way to know whether you're assenting to divine revelation or to mere human opinion about divine revelation.
Protestants and Catholics both believe that God has revealed himself to man over the course of human history, culminating in his ultimate self-revelation in Jesus Christ. But whereas Catholics believe that Christ founded a visible Church—which subsists in the Catholic Church—and has protected its doctrines from error, Protestants reject the notion of ecclesial infallibility, maintaining that no person, church, or denomination has been preserved from error in its teachings. Which means that anyone could be wrong, and no person or institution can be trusted with speaking the truth of divine revelation without error.
Universal Fallibility
“No one is infallible.” If Protestantism has a universal belief, this is it. Luther pioneered this idea when he asserted that popes and Church councils had erred. If they had erred, it meant God had not guided them into all truth; instead, he allowed them to fall into error and, worse, to proclaim error as truth.
And so the most a Protestant can do is tentatively assent to doctrinal statements made by his church, pastor, or denomination, since those statements, being fallible, could be substantively changed at some time in the future. We see this all the time in Protestantism, most commonly when a Protestant leaves one church for another due to doctrinal disagreement, especially after his church changed its position on an issue he considered important.
Consider the question of same-sex “marriage.” Until quite recently, all Protestant denominations taught this was a contradiction in terms. But now many have modified or even completely reversed this doctrine. Those Protestants who accept this new teaching believe that the old one was wrong—an erroneous human opinion that became enshrined in their church’s statement of faith. They can do this confidently, knowing that none of their fellow church members can plausibly claim that it contradicts an irreformable dogma that was infallibly revealed by God.
Ultimately, then, a Protestant (who remains Protestant) studies the relevant sources—Scripture, history, the writings of authoritative figures in his tradition—and chooses the Protestant denomination that most aligns with his judgment. But then, they say, Catholics do the same thing: studying the sources and then choosing the Catholic Church based on their own judgment. So they see no difference in this regard.
Because Catholicism is true,
Christians can know divine revelation, as distinct from mere human opinion, because God protects it from authoritatively teaching anything that is false.
How is the Catholic’s judgment different from a Protestant's, if at all? The difference lies in the conclusion, or finishing point, of the inquiry they make. Whereas the Protestant can ultimately submit only to his own judgment, which he knows to be fallible, the Catholic can confidently render total assent to the proclamations of the visible Church that Christ established and guides, submitting his judgments to its judgments as to Christ's.
And so a Catholic can know divine revelation, as distinct from human opinion, by looking to the Church, which speaks with Christ’s voice and cannot lie. For a Protestant, only the Bible itself contains God’s infallibly inspired words, so he desires to assent to that. But since the Bible must be interpreted by someone, the closest he can come to assenting to biblical teaching is assenting to his own fallible interpretation of it. And assenting to yourself is no assent at all.
The Protestant’s Dilemma
If Protestantism is true, all are fallible. So the Protestant must rely on his own judgment above that of his church. And the orthodoxy of the church itself is judged against his interpretation of the Bible. Thus is becomes impossible to distinguish between what divine revelation actually is versus what a fallible human being thinks it is. This fact makes the Catholic Church, philosophically speaking, preferable to Protestantism, since God’s truth can be known—and known with certainty.
AMEN! We are Lutherans! And the older I get, the smarter I realize Martin Luther was! What a brilliant mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To quote a less than great theologian (yourself): Shut up.
Verga's corollary to Godwin's law: A Catholic automatically wins the debate when a non/ anti-Catholic brings up the pedophile issue on a non pedophile thread.
How pathetic.
In the end, it's all but vanity.
Bon Jovi's got an old song for you
Thanks again for the laughs
I believe what you actually mean to say is: Thank you for so kindly and politely pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy of the non Catholics on these threads.
” Protestants only have a mere human opinion of divine revelation,”..... B.S.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
‘Joust of the Whores’: The Worst Popes in History
Ravi Somaiya
THE POPE
VATICAN
PEDOPHILES
BENEDICT
CATHOLIC CHURCH
5/16/10 11:50am
‘Joust of the Whores’: The Worst Popes in History
Pope Benedict may have ignored warnings about pedophiles and doddered while Rome perved, but he’s nowhere near the worst pope ever. Here, via history writer Tony Perrottet, we round up the Vatican’s greatest villains – syphilis, hookers and all.
Benedict is trying, bless him. Just this week he gamely called same-sex marriage one of the most “insidious and dangerous” threats facing the world. And he’s presided over dreadful allegations of child sex abuse.
But according to Perrottet, who has compiled a Vatican Hall of Shame, poor Benny is barely a footnote. Why? Here are some career highlights and inspirational quotes from his finest predecessors:
In 1501 Alexander VI once threw a party he called the “Joust of the Whores”:
...50 dancers were invited to slowly strip around the pope’s table. Alexander and his family gleefully threw chestnuts on the floor, forcing the women to grovel around their feet like swine; they then offered prizes of fine clothes and jewelry for the man who could fornicate with the most women.
Between whorejousts his hobbies included watching horses copulate, which would make him “laugh fit to bust.”
John XII slept with his two sisters. We do not mean nuns.
Boniface VIII massacred a whole town, and somehow still found time to be a major pedophile.
On his deathbed, Sergius III “ordered a comely wet nurse to supply him with milk fresh from the breast.”
Julius II was unable to allow his foot to be kissed by the faithful as it was completely covered with syphilitic sores.
Of Benedict IX, it is said he was “a wretch who feasted on immorality” and “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest.”
Upon his death, 50 priests offered Mass for Clement VI for nine consecutive days, but this was agreed to be nowhere near enough.
We are legally obliged to advise you not to try the Joust of the Whores at home.
Here is a list of the 42 antipopes
1. St. Hippolytus (reconciled with Pope St. Pontian and died as martyr to the church),
217–235
2. Novatian, 251–258
3. Felix II (confused with a martyr with the same name and thus considered an authentic
pope until recently), 355–365
4. Ursicinus (Ursinus), 366–367
5. Eulalius, 418–419
6. Laurentius, 498–499, 501–506
7. Dioscorus (legitimate perhaps as opposed to Boniface II but died 22 days after
election), 530
8. Theodore (II) (opposed to antipope Paschal), 687
9. Paschal (I) (opposed to antipope Theodore), 687
10. Theofylact, 757
11. Constantine II, 767–768
12. Philip (replaced antipope Constantine II briefly; reigned for a day and then returned
to his monastery), 768
13. John VIII, 844
14. Anastasius III Bibliothecarius, 855
15. Christopher, 903–904
16. Boniface VII, 974, 984–985
17. John Filagatto (John XVI), 997–9
18. Gregory VI, 1012
19. Sylvester III, 1045
20. John Mincius (Benedict X), 1058–1059
21. Pietro Cadalus (Honorius II), 1061–1064
22. Guibert of Ravenna (Clement III), 1080 & 1084–1100
23. Theodoric, 1100–1101
24. Adalbert, 1101
25. Maginulf (Sylvester IV), 1105–1111
26. Maurice Burdanus (Gregory VIII), 1118–1121
27. Thebaldus Buccapecuc (Celestine II) (legitimate but submitted to opposing pope,
Honorius II, and afterwards considered an antipope), 1124
28. Pietro Pierleoni (Anacletus II), 1130–1138
29. Gregorio Conti (Victor IV), 1138
30. Ottavio di Montecelio (Victor IV), 1159–1164
31. Guido di Crema (Paschal III), 1164–1168
32. Giovanni of Struma (Callixtus III), 1168–1178
33. Lanzo of Sezza (Innocent III), 1179–1180
34. Pietro Rainalducci (Nicholas V), antipope in Rome, 1328–1330
35. Robert of Geneva (Clement VII), antipope of the Avignon line, 20 September 1378 – 16
September 1394
36. Pedro de Luna (Benedict XIII), antipope of the Avignon line, 1394–1423
37. Pietro Philarghi Alexander V, antipope of the Pisan line, 1409–1410
38. Baldassare Cossa (John XXIII), antipope of the Pisan line, 1410–1415
39. Gil Sánchez Muñoz (Clement VIII), antipope of the Avignon line, 1423–1429
40. Bernard Garnier (the first Benedict XIV), antipope of the Avignon line, 1425–c. 1429
41. Jean Carrier (the second Benedict XIV), antipope of the Avignon line, 1430–1437
42. Duke Amadeus VIII of Savoy (Felix V), 5 November 1439 – 7 April 1449
(Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia)
One of the most notorious cases in Church history was that of the Antipope Anacletus II, who
reigned in Rome from 1130 to 1138. Anacletus had been implanted in an uncanonical election
after Innocent II, the true pope, had already been chosen. Despite his invalid and uncanonical
election, Antipope Anacletus II gained control of Rome and the support of the majority of the
College of Cardinals. Anacletus held the support of almost the entire populace of Rome, until the
true pope regained control of the city in 1138. (The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Anacletus,” Vol. 1, 1907,
p. 447.)
Your post(s) at this point suggest that you've fallen into emotion and have lost whatever made your points of view valid and that you're becoming instead a caricature of what you are complaining about.
Allow your self the wisdom to know what you can change and what you can't.
Let go and let God...
Christ, I repeat, was fully human but fully divine. He and the Father and the Holy Spirit manifest in different ways to our small human perception, but The Three in One are of one substance.
There you go again, trying to put words into others' mouths.
I though we just went over that.
Which here again leaves your last reply to be among the pitiful/pathetic loser type.
I'm beginning to become ashamed of myself for being able to laugh so continuously.
Small amounts of levity are fine, but to live there...
You are wrong
You are wrong, but Prots should know thais already.
I am wrong?
How so?
To laugh at how your own words continually undermine your own positions, even as you frame those..?
Perhaps I could stray into serious error, if in keeping up with the exchange here, someone might blow a gasket -- while they are otherwise officially at work, thus potentially lose their job and need find another one.
Gotta' pay off that fairly recent mortgage, ya' know? It's new enough not all that much of the principle has been reduced/converted into equity further than the initial down.
Lol, if you say so...
You are funny, thank you for the amusement, I would rather that it was entertainment, but well you know.....
Little.by little the Truth is making headway...
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1,
Likewise I accept Sacred Scripture according to that sense which Holy mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures; nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers. — http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm
Yet as the Dominican cardinal and Catholic theologian Yves Congar O.P. states,
Unanimous patristic consent as a reliable locus theologicus is classical in Catholic theology; it has often been declared such by the magisterium and its value in scriptural interpretation has been especially stressed. Application of the principle is difficult, at least at a certain level. In regard to individual texts of Scripture total patristic consensus is rare...One example: the interpretation of Peter’s confession in Matthew 16:16-18. Except at Rome, this passage was not applied by the Fathers to the papal primacy; they worked out an exegesis at the level of their own ecclesiological thought, more anthropological and spiritual than juridical. — Yves M.-J. Congar, O.P., p. 71
And Catholic archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick (1806-1896), while yet seeking to support Peter as the rock, stated that,
“If we are bound to follow the majority of the fathers in this thing, then we are bound to hold for certain that by the rock should be understood the faith professed by Peter, not Peter professing the faith.” — Speech of archbishop Kenkick, p. 109; An inside view of the vatican council, edited by Leonard Woolsey Bacon.
Your own CCC allows the interpretation that, “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church,” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424), for some of the ancients (for what their opinion is worth) provided for this or other interpretations.
• Ambrosiaster [who elsewhere upholds Peter as being the chief apostle to whom the Lord had entrusted the care of the Church, but not superior to Paul as an apostle except in time], Eph. 2:20:
Wherefore the Lord says to Peter: 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church,' that is, upon this confession of the catholic faith I shall establish the faithful in life. — Ambrosiaster, Commentaries on Galatians—Philemon, Eph. 2:20; Gerald L. Bray, p. 42
• Augustine, sermon:
"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327
Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.
• Augustine, sermon:
For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)
• Augustine, sermon:
And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289
• Augustine, sermon:
Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95
• Augustine, sermon:
...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193
• Augustine, Psalm LXI:
Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)
• Augustine, in “Retractions,”
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.
• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:
'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.
• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:
You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].
• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:
'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455
• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:
Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)
• Cyril of Alexandria:
When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.
• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):
“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'
“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)
• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II): Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.<
Not a single protestant contributed to...
I can imagine Christ saying something similar today (you guys DO know that not everything He ever said was written down; don't you?)
... "ROME, get thee behind me!"
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