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To: FourtySeven; All
Haha ok man, so we are going to keep going around in circles regarding "'eat' Christ 'already' even before readying teeth and stomach"? No thanks.

Well, if you avoid it, you leave me with my chiefest weapon. Because if you demand that Augustine believes that the eating of the eucharist and the eating of Christ spiritually are one in the same thing, or one is the result of the other, "through" another, then you must somehow explain why Augustine asks "Why ready teeth and stomach? Believe and you have eaten already." This proves that Augustine's teachings on the Lord's Supper, and his teachings on salvation, are not to be conflated, and are as I have defined them.

Again, YES we receive Christ in the Eucharist through faith, which is also why Augustine says that those who DON'T believe eat their own judgment in the Eucharist! (another Catholic teaching!) Here's something to chew on (no pun intended): how can someone who has no faith "eat judgment upon themselves", as Augustine says, if the Eucharist itself is of no effect?

It is also a Reformed teaching, and therefore does not contradict our position:

VII. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament,[13] do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.[14] VIII. Although ignorant and wicked men receive the outward elements in this sacrament; yet, they receive not the thing signified thereby; but, by their unworthy coming thereunto, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, to their own damnation. Wherefore, all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Him, so are they unworthy of the Lord's table; and cannot, without great sin against Christ, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries,[15] or be admitted thereunto.[16]

From "Of the Lord's Supper", Chapter XXIX of the Westminster Confession: http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

This mirrors very closely what Augustine says himself, who also denies that they are eating Christ, though they press the Eucharist to their lips:

"'He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.' This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him. Consequently, he that dwells not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwells not, doubtless neither eats His flesh [spiritually] nor drinks His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather does he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment, because he, being unclean, has presumed to come to the sacraments of Christ, which no man takes worthily except he that is pure: of such it is said, Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8" (Augustine, Tractate 26)

182 posted on 01/24/2015 5:37:57 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Excuse me, but the portion you have put in bold says exactly "although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth".

The wicked man therefore does not "eat" Jesus' body and blood in the Eucharist precisely because he doesn't believe! One must have faith first (as Augustine says) before one can receive Christ. Once one has faith, then one receives Christ.

The wicked has no faith, therefore, partaking of the Sacrament is, not only no effect, but actually damns the man, because it's defying the Word of God (Jesus, the Body of Christ) in the Eucharist.

I don't know how else I can put it.

Faith first in Jesus is what's required. In fact, this flows from how I didn't "avoid" your claim about "'eating' Christ 'already' even before readying teeth and stomach", it's actually you who have avoided answering my reply, again, located here: http://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3250227/posts?page=146#146

I said again, "Here then we can clearly see the context that St. Augustine is speaking in, which is that first, belief in Jesus is required for Salvation! When the Saint speaks "believe, and you have eaten already", he is not speaking about the Eucharist, rather, what Augustine is saying here is that the Jews must seek after Jesus first, believe in Him first, not seeking after any carnal "bread" that just filled their bellies. Remember, they (the crowd) were just filled by the miracle of the loaves and the fishes at this time, and Jesus knew that they were following Him around because they sought a man who would always do this for them (John 6:26). "

So belief in Him is required first, and to stress the importance of this belief, this faith in Christ that is all important, Augustine said "believe, and you have eaten already" meaning, do not even seek after food itself to fill the belly before seeking Christ Himself, in other words Faith in Christ is more important than even food, or, do not seek Christ to be some filler of your belly, to give you "bread" to fill your belly and keep you "alive" here on earth, rather He will give us Bread that will give us eternal life if you believe in Him first. And that is what is most important, not food, but Christ. So "believe in Him, and you have eaten already"

This is the proper context of that passage from Tractate 25 (paragraph 12), which then gives the proper context of Tractate 26, and beyond.

First believe in Christ, then you can receive the Body of Christ in the Eucharist. If you don't believe, you not only don't receive Christ (don't 'eat' Christ as Augustine puts it), but you also "eat and drink the sacrament" (again a symbol and also that which it symbolizes) "of so great a thing to [your] own judgment" Tractate 26, paragraph 18.

Anyone should really read all of the tractates for themselves, and really wonder: Does this man sound more like a Catholic, or a Protestant.

Here:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701.htm

187 posted on 01/24/2015 6:18:34 PM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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