After the apostles died, was the gospel hopelessly lost until the Reformation?Posted on 01/24/2015 8:33:46 AM PST by RnMomof7
After the apostles died, was the gospel hopelessly lost until the Reformation?
That certainly seems to be a common assumption in some Protestant circles today. Thankfully, it is a false assumption.
I’m not entirely sure where that misconception started. But one thing I do know: it did not come from the Protestant Reformers.
The Reformers themselves (including Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and others) were convinced that their position was not only biblical, but also historical. In other words, they contended that both the apostles and the church fathers would have agreed with them on the heart of the gospel.
For example, the second-generation Lutheran reformer, Martin Chemnitz (1522-1586), wrote a treatise on justification in which he defended the Protestant position by extensively using the church fathers. And John Calvin (1509-1564), in his Institutes, similarly claimed that he could easily debunk his Roman Catholic opponents using nothing but patristic sources. Here’s what he wrote:
If the contest were to be determined by patristic authority, the tide of victory — to put it very modestly —would turn to our side. Now, these fathers have written many wise and excellent things. . . . [Yet] the good things that these fathers have written they [the Roman Catholics] either do not notice, or misrepresent or pervert. . . . But we do not despise them [the church fathers]; in fact, if it were to our present purpose, I could with no trouble at all prove that the greater part of what we are saying today meets their approval.
Source: John Calvin, “Prefatory Address to King Francis I of France,” The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Section 4.
How could the Reformers be so confident that their understanding of the gospel was consistent with the teachings of the ancient church? Or perhaps more to the point: What did the early church fathers have to say about the gospel of grace?
Here is an admittedly brief collection of 30 patristic quotes, centering on the reality that justification is by grace alone through faith alone. Many more could be provided. But I think you’ll be encouraged by this survey look at the gospel according to the church fathers.
(Even if you don’t read every quote, just take a moment to consider the fact that, long before Luther, the leaders of the ancient church were clearly proclaiming the gospel of grace through faith in Christ.)
1. Clement of Rome (30-100): “And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
Source: Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.4.
2. Epistle to Diognetus (second century): “He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! That the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors!”
Source: The Epistle to Diognetus, 9.2-5.
3. Justin Martyr (100-165) speaks of “those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death.”
Source: Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 13.
4. Origen (185-254): “For God is just, and therefore he could not justify the unjust. Therefore he required the intervention of a propitiator, so that by having faith in Him those who could not be justified by their own works might be justified.”
Source: Origen, Commentary on Romans, 2.112.
5. Origen (again): “A man is justified by faith. The works of the law can make no contribution to this. Where there is no faith which might justify the believer, even if there are works of the law these are not based on the foundation of faith. Even if they are good in themselves they cannot justify the one who does them, because faith is lacking, and faith is the mark of those who are justified by God.”
Source: Origen, Commentary on Romans, 2.136.
6. Hilary of Poitiers (300-368): “Wages cannot be considered as a gift, because they are due to work, but God has given free grace to all men by the justification of faith.”
Source: Hilary, Commentary on Matthew (on Matt. 20:7)
7. Hilary of Poitiers (again): “It disturbed the scribes that sin was forgiven by a man (for they considered that Jesus Christ was only a man) and that sin was forgiven by Him whereas the Law was not able to absolve it, since faith alone justifies.”
Source: Hilary, Commentary on Matthew (on Matt. 9:3)
8. Didymus the Blind (c. 313-398) “A person is saved by grace, not by works but by faith. There should be no doubt but that faith saves and then lives by doing its own works, so that the works which are added to salvation by faith are not those of the law but a different kind of thing altogether.”[31]
Source: Didymus the Blind. Commentary on James, 2:26b.
9. Basil of Caesarea (329-379): “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is justified solely by faith in Christ.”
Source: Basil, Homily on Humility, 20.3.
10. Jerome (347–420): “We are saved by grace rather than works, for we can give God nothing in return for what he has bestowed on us.”
Source: Jerome, Epistle to the Ephesians, 1.2.1.
11. John Chrysostom (349-407): “For Scripture says that faith has saved us. Put better: Since God willed it, faith has saved us. Now in what case, tell me, does faith save without itself doing anything at all? Faith’s workings themselves are a gift of God, lest anyone should boast. What then is Paul saying? Not that God has forbidden works but that he has forbidden us to be justified by works. No one, Paul says, is justified by works, precisely in order that the grace and benevolence of God may become apparent.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Ephesians, 4.2.9.
12. John Chrysostom (again): “But what is the ‘law of faith?’ It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans, 7.27.
13. John Chrysostom (again): “God allowed his Son to suffer as if a condemned sinner, so that we might be delivered from the penalty of our sins. This is God’s righteousness, that we are not justified by works (for then they would have to be perfect, which is impossible), but by grace, in which case all our sin is removed.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians, 11.5.
14. John Chrysostom (again): “Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. ‘And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.’ (v. 9.) From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Acts, 32 (regarding Acts 15:1)
15. John Chrysostom (again): “What then was it that was thought incredible? That those who were enemies, and sinners, neither justified by the law, nor by works, should immediately through faith alone be advanced to the highest favor. Upon this head accordingly Paul has discoursed at length in his Epistle to the Romans, and here again at length. “This is a faithful saying,” he says, “and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Timothy, 4.1.
16. John Chrysostom (again): “”For it is most of all apparent among the Gentiles, as he also says elsewhere, ‘And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.’ (Romans 15:9.) For the great glory of this mystery is apparent among others also, but much more among these. For, on a sudden, to have brought men more senseless than stones to the dignity of Angels, simply through bare words, and faith alone, without any laboriousness, is indeed glory and riches of mystery: just as if one were to take a dog, quite consumed with hunger and the mange, foul, and loathsome to see, and not so much as able to move, but lying cast out, and make him all at once into a man, and to display him upon the royal throne.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Colossians, 5.2.
17. John Chrysostom (again): “Now since the Jews kept turning over and over the fact, that the Patriarch, and friend of God, was the first to receive circumcision, he wishes to show, that it was by faith that he too was justified. And this was quite a vantage ground to insist upon. For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans, 8.1.
18. Augustine (354-430): “If Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified? The apostle goes on to tell us how: What does scripture say? (that is, about how Abraham was justified). Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6). Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.”
Source: Augustine, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 2-4.
19. Augustine (again): “When someone believes in him who justifies the impious, that faith is reckoned as justice to the believer, as David too declares that person blessed whom God has accepted and endowed with righteousness, independently of any righteous actions (Rom 4:5-6). What righteousness is this? The righteousness of faith, preceded by no good works, but with good works as its consequence.”
Source: Augustine, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 6-7.
20. Ambrosiaster (fourth century): “God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:4.
21. Ambrosiaster (again): “They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Romans 3:24.
22. Ambrosiaster (again): “Paul tells those who live under the law that they have no reason to boast basing themselves on the law and claiming to be of the race of Abraham, seeing that no one is justified before God except by faith.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Romans 3:27.
23. Ambrosiaster (again): “God gave what he promised in order to be revealed as righteous. For he had promised that he would justify those who believe in Christ, as he says in Habakkuk: ‘The righteous will live by faith in me’ (Hab. 2:4). Whoever has faith in God and Christ is righteous.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul’s Epistles; CSEL 81 ad loc.
24. Marius Victorinus (fourth century): “The fact that you Ephesians are saved is not something that comes from yourselves. It is the gift of God. It is not from your works, but it is God’s grace and God’s gift, not from anything you have deserved. … We did not receive things by our own merit but by the grace and goodness of God.”
Source: Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Ephesians, 1.2.9.
25. Prosper of Aquitaine (390–455): “And just as there are no crimes so detestable that they can prevent the gift of grace, so too there can be no works so eminent that they are owed in condign [deserved] judgment that which is given freely. Would it not be a debasement of redemption in Christ’s blood, and would not God’s mercy be made secondary to human works, if justification, which is through grace, were owed in view of preceding merits, so that it were not the gift of a Donor, but the wages of a laborer?”
Source: Prosper of Acquitaine, Call of All Nations, 1.17
26. Theodoret of Cyrus (393–457): “The Lord Christ is both God and the mercy seat, both the priest and the lamb, and he performed the work of our salvation by his blood, demanding only faith from us.”
Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans; PG 82 ad loc.
27. Theodoret of Cyrus (again): “All we bring to grace is our faith. But even in this faith, divine grace itself has become our enabler. For [Paul] adds, ‘And this is not of yourselves but it is a gift of God; not of works, lest anyone should boast’ (Eph. 2:8–9). It is not of our own accord that we have believed, but we have come to belief after having been called; and even when we had come to believe, He did not require of us purity of life, but approving mere faith, God bestowed on us forgiveness of sins”
Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Interpretation of the Fourteen Epistles of Paul; FEF 3:248–49, sec. 2163.
28. Cyril of Alexandria (412-444): “For we are justified by faith, not by works of the law, as Scripture says. By faith in whom, then, are we justified? Is it not in Him who suffered death according to the flesh for our sake? Is it not in one Lord Jesus Christ?”
Source: Cyril of Alexandria, Against Nestorius, 3.62
29. Fulgentius (462–533): “The blessed Paul argues that we are saved by faith, which he declares to be not from us but a gift from God. Thus there cannot possibly be true salvation where there is no true faith, and, since this faith is divinely enabled, it is without doubt bestowed by his free generosity. Where there is true belief through true faith, true salvation certainly accompanies it. Anyone who departs from true faith will not possess the grace of true salvation.”
Source: Fulgentius, On the Incarnation, 1; CCL 91:313.
30. Bede (673-735): “Although the apostle Paul preached that we are justified by faith without works, those who understand by this that it does not matter whether they live evil lives or do wicked and terrible things, as long as they believe in Christ, because salvation is through faith, have made a great mistake. James here expounds how Paul’s words ought to be understood. This is why he uses the example of Abraham, whom Paul also used as an example of faith, to show that the patriarch also performed good works in the light of his faith. It is therefore wrong to interpret Paul in such a way as to suggest that it did not matter whether Abraham put his faith into practice or not. What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, because the gift of justification comes only from faith.”
Source: Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.The quotes from the Church Fathers have to be interpreted in light of what Scripture teaches.But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
Yes, we are saved by grace through faith/works. Faith and works, or charity, are two sides of the same coin.
As Scripture tells us, "Faith without works is dead."
Take your ritualistic legalism back to the magical mystery tour of Catholicism.
Scare much? I’m not Catholic. I believe the Bible, KJV, to be the Word of God. It’s just that I don’t follow Christian philosophers, but only the Word of God.
You’re wrong. Your views are wrong and aren’t supported in the Bible. The True Church must have the same organization and ordinances as the church Christ set up.
That is all.
Good day, sir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ
“Not if he didn’t give the credit to Jesus I wouldn’t. “
Yes, you would - if you lived centuries before Jesus walked the earth.
“But if you really believe demons respond to bad smells, you go ahead and try that next time you run into one of those things.”
Bud, they respond to holy water - they hate it. They respond to the Eucharist - they hate it. They’re a lot like Protestant anti-Catholics.
God chose to heal people with a graven image of a snake. God does what He wills. You deny that. I never will.
“Murder is the word you are looking for.”
Abortion. That is the word. When you find it in the Bible let me know.
CLEMENT OF ROME________________________________________Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.
The good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, TO RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORK."
Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us.
IGNATIUS
Seeing then, all things have an end, there is set before us life upon our observance of God's precepts, but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place,
JUSTIN MARTYR
We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man's actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed.
Since those who did that which is universally, naturally, and eternally good are pleasing to God, they shall be saved through this Christ in the resurrection equally with those righteous men who were before them, namely Noah, and Enoch, and Jacob, and who have known this Christ, Son of God.
And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.
Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire. but would by all means restrain himself and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments
CYPRIAN
The Lord denounces [Christian evildoers], and says, 'Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and in Your name have cast out devils, and in Your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity' [Matt. 7:21-23]. There is need of righteousness, that one may deserve well of God the Judge; we must obey His precepts and warnings, that our merits may receive their reward
You therefore, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself of Christ gold tried by fire; that you may be pure gold, with your filth burnt out as if by fire, if you are purged by almsgiving and righteous works. Buy for yourself white raiment, that you who had been naked according to Adam, and were before frightful and unseemly, may be clothed with the white garment of Christ. And you who are a wealthy and rich matron in Christ's Church, anoint your eyes, not with the collyrium of the devil, but with Christ's eye-salve, that you may be able to attain to see God, by deserving well of God, both by good works and character
"As water extinguisheth fire, so almsgiving quencheth sin." (Sirach; 3:30) (Cyprian quotes from the Deuterocanonicals, reflecting the fact that these books rejected by Protestants were seen as Scripture)Here also it is shown and proved, that as in the layer of saving water the fire of Gehenna is extinguished, so by almsgiving and works of righteousness the flame of sins is subdued.
The remedies for propitiating God are given in the words of God Himself; the divine instructions have taught what sinners ought to do, that by works of righteousness God is satisfied, that with the deserts of mercy sins are cleansed.
"Prayer is good, with fasting and alms; because alms doth deliver from death, and it purgeth away sins."(Tobit 12:8, 9) (Cyprian quotes from a Deuterocanonical book as Scripture again) He shows that our prayers and fastings are of less avail, unless they are aided by almsgiving; that entreaties alone are of little force to obtain what they seek, unless they be made sufficient by the addition of deeds and good works
ATHANASIUS
He is to come, no more to suffer, but thenceforth to render to all the fruit of his own cross, that is, the resurrection and incorruption; and no longer to be judged, but to judge all, by what each has done in the body, whether good or evil; where there is laid up for the good the kingdom of heaven, but for them that have done evil everlasting fire and outer darkness.
For according to the blessed Paul: "We must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, that each one may receive according as he hath done in the body whether it be good or bad."
BASIL
Eternal rest awaits those who have struggled through the present life observant of the laws, not as payment owed for their works, but bestowed as a gift of the munificent God on those who have hoped in him.
AMBROSE
If thou clothe the naked, thou clothest thyself with righteousness; if thou bring the stranger under thy roof, if thou support the needy, he procures for thee the friendship of the saints and eternal habitations. That is no small recompense. Thou sowest earthly things and receivest heavenly... Not again is nay one more blessed than he who is sensible to the needs of the poor, and the hardships of the weak and helpless. In the day of judgment he will receive salvation from the Lord.
He calls each blessed both him whose sins are remitted by the font, and him whose sin is covered by good works. For he who repents ought not only to wash away his sin by his tears, but also to cover and hide his former transgressions by amended deeds, that sin may not be imputed to him. Let us, then, cover our falls by our subsequent acts; let us purify ourselves by tears, that the Lord our God may hear us when we lament, as He heard Ephraim when weeping, as it is written: "I have surely heard Ephraim weeping." (Jer. 31:18) And He expressly repeats the very words of Ephraim: "Thou hast chastised me and I was chastised, like a calf I was not trained (Jer. 31:18)."
JEROME
although even thus there is not sure and safe possession . For the lion lurks in ambush to slay the innocent. Sirach 37:5 "Potters' vessels are proved by the furnace, and just men by the trial of tribulation." And in another place it is written: Sirach 2:1 "My son, when thou comest to serve the Lord, prepare thyself for temptation." Again, the same James says: "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only. For if any one is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was." It was useless to warn them to add works to faith, if they could not sin after baptism.
+++ LETTER OF JAMES +++What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[b] is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
1But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
Your frustration at not being able to support your contentions with scripture acknowledged.
Wow! You are clairvoyant also? Knowing what I would do ey? And don't change the question and the answer to it. Here's your question again.
>>If an angel of the Lord told me to, I would. You probably would do no differently.<<
Do you live "centuries before Christ? I surely don't. You said you would. I said I would not without testing the spirit to see if it was from God.
**Once you reply, if ever, we can go on to the necessity of baptism for salvation using just the Bible.**
You’re talking to the wall.
I’m ‘sola scriptura’, and I’ve taken those that think they are sola scriptura to task on water baptism. They claim to believe it all, but that baptism comes after salvation, thereby in their ignorance, they have unwittingly reworded scripture, such as Mark 16:16 to say this instead:
“He that is saved, shall believe and should be baptized (sprinkled, but not necessary)..” (the Calvinists)
“He that believeth is saved, and then should be baptized (sprinkled or immersion, but not necessary)..”. (many more of the Prods)
This is their rewording of Acts 2:38:
“He that is saved will repent and believe (the Spirit given by that point), and should be baptized..”. (Calvinists. They believe the Spirit is given at the moment the individual says that they believe in Jesus, which can preceed repentance, according to their predestination interpretations).
“He that repents, believes (receives the Spirit at this point), is saved, and should be baptized..”. (many more of the Prods)
But, to my knowledge, the EO, RCC, and the bulk of the Prods do not baptize in the name of Jesus, making the command void of the only name that can save.
Another part of the scripture that the Calvinists disregard:
Jesus Christ taught about the new birth, saying that when one receives the Spirit, there is a confirming sound: “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE..” (EVERYONE! Not just those on Pentecost) “..that is BORN of the SPIRIT”. John 3:8
The bulk of the prods run to the epistles to find their instruction for salvation, ignoring the introductions of those epistles, which salute the ‘saints’ that they were written to. This is the context: Those folks have already obeyed (believed) Acts 2:38.
“Wow! You are clairvoyant also?”
No more than you. You said you wouldn’t do anything and linked that to a knowledge of Jesus, but Jesus hadn’t come yet so it wasn’t even a logical comment on your part.
“Knowing what I would do ey?”
Well, let’s test that. It’s 600 BC, an angel of the Lord appears to you and tells you to do something. And you say you would say no because “he didn’t give the credit to Jesus”?
“And don’t change the question and the answer to it. Here’s your question again.”
I changed NOTHING. We were talking about Tobit OR DID THAT JUST SLIP YOUR MIND EVER SO CONVENIENTLY NOW?
“Do you live “centuries before Christ?”
Tobit did.
“I surely don’t.”
Tobit did - and I seriously doubt you FORGOT that that was who we were talking about.
“You said you would.”
Absolutely - in Tobit’s time or now. If an angel of the Lord appeared to me, I would be obedient.
“I said I would not without testing the spirit to see if it was from God.”
No, you said this:
“Not if he didn’t Not if he didn’t give the credit to Jesus I wouldn’t. “Test the spirits whether they be of God” and all that.
Thus, your “test” is whether or not he “give[s] the credit to Jesus”. Yet, in Acts 12 we see an angel appears to Peter in prison and tells him to get up, get dressed and put his sandals on, and follow him out of the prison. Never once does the angel any ANYTHING about Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit. So, you would have failed the angel on your “test” and stayed in prison and died if you were Peter, right? Way to go! Notice what it says in Acts 12:11:
11 And Peter came to himself, and said, “Now I am sure that the Lord has sent his angel and rescued me from the hand of Herod and from all that the Jewish people were expecting.”
So Peter comes to himself and realizes that it was most definitely an Angel of the Lord BECAUSE IT WORKED in rescuing him. He had no other test than that for that angel. I trust Peter’s reasoning a lot more than yours.
When an angel appears to Philip in Acts 8, he says NOTHING about giving credit to Jesus. Philip obeys him without question.
In Acts 10, an angel appears to Cornelius and says EXACTLY NOTHING about giving credit to Jesus. Cornelius obeys him without question.
I'll let you run down that fantasy rabbit trail by yourself. Placate you ego as you wish.
>>Never once does the angel any ANYTHING about Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit. So, you would have failed the angel on your “test” and stayed in prison and died if you were Peter, right?<<
Peter and all of the New Testament believers had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give them discernment. Isn't that something Catholics deny for anyone other then their "magisterium?. Of course Peter knew where the angel was from.
“I’ll let you run down that fantasy rabbit trail by yourself. Placate you ego as you wish.”
Of course you’ll say that: Because if you actually dealt with it you would have to admit I was right all along. Tobit lived before Christ walked the earth.
“Peter and all of the New Testament believers had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give them discernment.”
But you don’t? After all if you’re saying you would put an angel to a “test” and yet the Apostles didn’t because they “had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give them discernment”, then you must not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give you discernment. Once again we see the deficiencies of the Protestant mindset.
“Isn’t that something Catholics deny for anyone other then their “magisterium?.”
Nope. But you just denied it to yourself by using your own invented out of thin air “test” which denies your have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Need another shovel to dig your logic hole deeper?
“Of course Peter knew where the angel was from.”
Not until he came to himself - as the text says. He knew it by the successful action of the angel.
Yep, sure have! Several of 'em on a pretty regular basis but I don't expect you to notice. It seems only the opposition ever appears on your radar.
Are you aware that I have caught Protestant anti-Catholics here LYING about where they got things, how they altered quotes, etc.? Check my profile page.
I read it. If that's all you got, you only further your reputation as a nitpicking, grammar-nazi wannabe who says everyone is wrong but himself.
The Israelites during the Old Testement had a directive to know who was from God and who wasn't.
Jer 26:4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Did this so called angel say that? No he didn't. That so called angel said "'I am one of your brother Israelites; I have come to these parts to look for work.". An angel came to look for work? Tobias actually told him he would pay him for his time. The so called angel said "I am Azarias, son of the great Ananias, one of your kinsmen." Not once did that so called angel claim to be from God or make the statement "thus saith God" nor did he say he was from God. That all makes him a liar about being an angel.
The Israelites were warned about them.
Num 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Believe in that false angel and that Tobit is scripture if you want but it's obviously not inspired by God.
I can appreciate that. Take care.
Very good and thanks for your insights and comments.
“Yep, sure have! Several of ‘em on a pretty regular basis but I don’t expect you to notice.”
Well, here’s the problem: 1) I have no immediate reason to believe you, 2) I rarely post to my fellow Catholics within a thread and rarely get involved in their conversations for any length of time so I don’t read their posts within a thread since I’m spending my time reading posts written to me, 3) I know of no example of a Catholic outright lying about such a thing - but I have caught anti-Catholics lying about it on more than one occasion, 4) go ahead and call them on it. I don’t care if you do. If a Catholic is wrong, he is wrong. I have corrected Catholics when I saw something they posted to be wrong, but that is usually something I stumbled across. It’s rarely posted to me. Zionist Conspirator gets angry at me for not going after every Catholic theological-evolutionist here. I never know what he is talking about because I didn’t see the threads he is wringing his hands over! I read a lot (just in the last month I purchased 11 books - and I’m trying to cut back in 2015 - and two of those are study Bibles that are going to take me a while to get through). So, no, I don’t read every post by everyone at FR. I have no time for it.
“It seems only the opposition ever appears on your radar.”
Since I am posting to them and them to me, that would make sense would it not?
“I read it. If that’s all you got, you only further your reputation as a nitpicking, grammar-nazi wannabe who says everyone is wrong but himself.”
No. That’s all I saved. I wished I saved more. You’ve done this before - even if you don’t remember it. It’s not about “nitpicking” or “grammar”. If a man who attacks the Catholic faith repeatedly, essentially claiming his invented sect must be better because Protestantism’s interpretation of the Bible is better and purer, shows himself to be dishonest even after GETTING CAUGHT - and only the Protestant anti-Catholics are doing this here - that says a lot about not only them, but their sect and Protestantism.
When I first started getting involved in things online I assumed that anti-Catholics were anti-Catholic out of ignorance. And yes that was sometimes true. But there are also some anti-Catholics who are just plain dishonest. I have yet to come across Catholics doing online apologetics who are dishonest. They might exist, but I certainly have not run into them here at FR. Only the anti-Catholics seem to have this problem with honesty. Why is that?
Are you aware that you are voicing an incorrect definition of sola Scriptura? No one claims EVERYTHING is in the Bible but that the Bible - as the ONLY Divinely-inspired writings we have - is sufficient to know the plan of salvation and contains the basis of all that is required to be believed in order to live a holy, righteous and honorable life. The Bible remains THE standard authority by which the rule of the Christian faith must be measured.
Take the anointing of the sick "ordinance/ritual" you mentioned. We know from Scripture that it IS something God desires we do else it wouldn't say we CAN do it. Is it your contention that unless we do it exactly the way your church does it, God won't honor it? God won't heal anyone unless it's done the "right" way with the "right" prayers by the "right" people? I don't think so. James was writing this to believers to encourage them to trust in God for healing and forgiveness - NOT so that the precise ritual would be spelled out.
You say the Bible is "insufficient" without a human revelator? Just what is it you think the Holy Spirit does? Has God gifted us with other believers to help, teach, explain, interpret and reveal God's word to us? Yes, He has. But, it is always the Holy Spirit behind it and the sacred Scriptures - which are able to make us wise unto salvation - remain the authority so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. The "church" is to be in submission to the Scriptures - not the other way around.
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