Posted on 01/24/2015 8:33:46 AM PST by RnMomof7
Maybe?
For sure......
Well, if you avoid it, you leave me with my chiefest weapon. Because if you demand that Augustine believes that the eating of the eucharist and the eating of Christ spiritually are one in the same thing, or one is the result of the other, "through" another, then you must somehow explain why Augustine asks "Why ready teeth and stomach? Believe and you have eaten already." This proves that Augustine's teachings on the Lord's Supper, and his teachings on salvation, are not to be conflated, and are as I have defined them.
Again, YES we receive Christ in the Eucharist through faith, which is also why Augustine says that those who DON'T believe eat their own judgment in the Eucharist! (another Catholic teaching!) Here's something to chew on (no pun intended): how can someone who has no faith "eat judgment upon themselves", as Augustine says, if the Eucharist itself is of no effect?
It is also a Reformed teaching, and therefore does not contradict our position:
VII. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament,[13] do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.[14] VIII. Although ignorant and wicked men receive the outward elements in this sacrament; yet, they receive not the thing signified thereby; but, by their unworthy coming thereunto, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, to their own damnation. Wherefore, all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Him, so are they unworthy of the Lord's table; and cannot, without great sin against Christ, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries,[15] or be admitted thereunto.[16]
From "Of the Lord's Supper", Chapter XXIX of the Westminster Confession: http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
This mirrors very closely what Augustine says himself, who also denies that they are eating Christ, though they press the Eucharist to their lips:
"'He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.' This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him. Consequently, he that dwells not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwells not, doubtless neither eats His flesh [spiritually] nor drinks His blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather does he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgment, because he, being unclean, has presumed to come to the sacraments of Christ, which no man takes worthily except he that is pure: of such it is said, Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8" (Augustine, Tractate 26)
Abortion is the taking of life; the shedding of innocent blood; abortion is murder: Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
And I just now thought of this: How do you say that the eucharist is eaten through faith, if you believe in transubstantiation, which makes the elements really and truly the body of Christ under the form of other things, physically and not spiritually? If you say you eat Christ "through faith," then it follows that those who eat without faith do not eat Christ. But if the bread and wine is Christ's body, transubstantiated after being prayed over, then those who do not have faith must also eat Christ whether they believe it or not.
Peace,
SR
Well said.
The wicked man therefore does not "eat" Jesus' body and blood in the Eucharist precisely because he doesn't believe! One must have faith first (as Augustine says) before one can receive Christ. Once one has faith, then one receives Christ.
The wicked has no faith, therefore, partaking of the Sacrament is, not only no effect, but actually damns the man, because it's defying the Word of God (Jesus, the Body of Christ) in the Eucharist.
I don't know how else I can put it.
Faith first in Jesus is what's required. In fact, this flows from how I didn't "avoid" your claim about "'eating' Christ 'already' even before readying teeth and stomach", it's actually you who have avoided answering my reply, again, located here: http://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3250227/posts?page=146#146
I said again, "Here then we can clearly see the context that St. Augustine is speaking in, which is that first, belief in Jesus is required for Salvation! When the Saint speaks "believe, and you have eaten already", he is not speaking about the Eucharist, rather, what Augustine is saying here is that the Jews must seek after Jesus first, believe in Him first, not seeking after any carnal "bread" that just filled their bellies. Remember, they (the crowd) were just filled by the miracle of the loaves and the fishes at this time, and Jesus knew that they were following Him around because they sought a man who would always do this for them (John 6:26). "
So belief in Him is required first, and to stress the importance of this belief, this faith in Christ that is all important, Augustine said "believe, and you have eaten already" meaning, do not even seek after food itself to fill the belly before seeking Christ Himself, in other words Faith in Christ is more important than even food, or, do not seek Christ to be some filler of your belly, to give you "bread" to fill your belly and keep you "alive" here on earth, rather He will give us Bread that will give us eternal life if you believe in Him first. And that is what is most important, not food, but Christ. So "believe in Him, and you have eaten already"
This is the proper context of that passage from Tractate 25 (paragraph 12), which then gives the proper context of Tractate 26, and beyond.
First believe in Christ, then you can receive the Body of Christ in the Eucharist. If you don't believe, you not only don't receive Christ (don't 'eat' Christ as Augustine puts it), but you also "eat and drink the sacrament" (again a symbol and also that which it symbolizes) "of so great a thing to [your] own judgment" Tractate 26, paragraph 18.
Anyone should really read all of the tractates for themselves, and really wonder: Does this man sound more like a Catholic, or a Protestant.
Here:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701.htm
See my 187.
The Gospel is God’s good news, but what exactly would that good news be? The end of the Mosaic Law? The absence of a need for a sacrifice? The closure of the temple?
If faith is sufficient alone why did Jesus Christ command further ordinances like baptism and the laying on of hands?
Faith is just the beginning, the starting point.
It was a message of God’s good news brought first to the remnant of apostate Israel, mainly the tribe of Judah. Keep in mind the centuries of apostasy, intermixing philosophies and subjugation. Many things were lost and the Maccabees didn’t restore it all.
Your post presumes that the Bible contains a one to one mapping of all that was taught by the God via Jesus Christ to the Apostles. Clearly it cannot be. There are mysteries of God unwritten in the Bible, but only hinted at.
How do you anoint the sick? What is the proper method of baptism, an ordinance necessary for salvation per Jesus Christ?
It's difficult to discern what you are saying here. Augustine is not speaking of any bread, but of the bread that comes down from heaven (Himself), which is eaten and drank by faith without any physical eating. If Christ is speaking of how it is we eat him, and if eating the eucharist is eating Him (as you hold), and is necessary to receive Him as it is "through" it that we receive Him, then this is problematic for you:
“Wherefore, the Lord, about to give the Holy Spirit, said that Himself was the bread that came down from heaven, exhorting us to believe in Him. For to believe in Him is to eat the living bread. He that believes eats; he is sated invisibly, because invisibly is he born again. A babe within, a new man within. Where he is made new, there he is satisfied with food. (12) What then did the Lord answer to such murmurers? Murmur not among yourselves. As if He said, I know why you are not hungry, and do not understand nor seek after this bread. Murmur not among yourselves: no man can come unto me, except the Father that sent me draw him. Noble excellence of grace! No man comes unless drawn. There is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if you desire not to err.” (Augustine, Tractate 26)
Therefore it is not true that Augustine is saying "do not even seek after food itself to fill the belly before seeking Christ Himself," but is explaining how it is that we eat Christ. And this is accomplished not through the eucharist, but through faith "without teeth and stomach." Thus the eating of Christ for salvation through faith is distinct from the eating of the Lord's Supper.
I also like how Augustine gives the Calvinistic reading of the verses therein, and thus denies universal grace.
Necessary for salvation you say? Not according to scripture.
Thank you for the link.
In summary the quoted fathers speak of how faith and works of righteousness cannot be separated; it is an interwoven cloth. Amazingly the reformers claimed the same.
What one must observe is what was the understanding of the fathers and even the reformers on the matter?
We have some Catholics who claim the works of good deeds and righteousness is of our own doing and such ‘part’ of our justification. The council of Orange struck that semi pelagian idea down.
Let’s check out what is said in scriptures.
When Nicodemus came to Jesus by night he got quite an education on the OT scriptures, the TaNaKh. Here’s the discourse:
John 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.(KJV)
Nicodemus was called “the teacher” of Israel yet he grasped for understanding Christ’s discourse. Why? It seems the teacher of Israel gained his understanding from the law of men and not God’s Law. Nicodemus should have known the following as Christ used exact images from this:
Ezekiel 36 King James Version (KJV)
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.(KJV)
Verse 25-27 above. Sounds familiar. The above and Psalm 51 and many others should have been on the mind of Nicodemus. Instead Nicodemus was engaged in cleaning plates, who or what not to touch etc.
How many “I dos” and “I wills” do we see in Ezekiel 36 above? All of which come from the mouth of YHWH.
Salvation, from the words of God, belongs to Him. He owns it and there is nothing in the “formula” we ‘do’. Because...
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Romans 11:6)
We had nothing to do with our earthly conception (we can ask our parents about that); So we are born again of the Spirit and not a work of our hands.
In closing Paul has this to say reference our regeneration:
2 Corinthians 5 King James Version (KJV)
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.(KJV)
Therefore, the righteousness the apostles and even the church fathers wrote about is the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
You’re on the thinnest ice.
http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=baptism
As a schismatic Catholic, you’ll struggle to build a church from the Bible alone. You need the rock of revelation and the authority it brings to succeed.
BTW, what’s the method of anointing for the sick?
http://biblehub.com/james/5-14.htm
Don’t fall through the ice, CB.
Faith is the beginning. It gets us saved.
The rest of the stuff is for growth and maturity and ministry.
Baptism and laying on of hands is not for salvation.
In Galatians 3, Paul write to the Galatians and says they are foolish for beginning with grace and trying to be perfected by works.
Faith is just the beginning, the starting point.
What is begun in faith continues in faith. Jesus gave us commands and every true child of God desires to obey them all, though we are not perfect. But consider what Paul says:
Galatians 3:2-3 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?What is missed by the "faith is just the beginning" theory is that all obedience is a byproduct of faith. The two are not separable. If we obey him in baptism, or in taking the Lord's Supper, or in any other command, it is because we believe in Him, and that all He tels us to do is right and good and wholesome, not because we are expecting to earn credit for our effort. Salvation is not a quid pro quo business arrangement. It's a marriage. There is a commitment from both parties. We've been forgiven. We don't labor to gain His favor. We already have it. We labor to do good because it is the only possible response of love.
"For to believe in Him is to eat the living bread. "
I certainly read this as "Believing in him is to eat the living bread" or "By eating the living bread you are believing in him". There is nothing to prevent me from reading it that way, other than IF what you say about "believe and you have eaten already" is true.
"9. And now addressing the few that remained: Then said Jesus to the twelve (namely, those twelve who remained), Will ye also, said He, go away? Not even Judas departed. But it was already manifest to the Lord why he remained: to us he was made manifest afterwards. Peter answered in behalf of all, one for many, unity for the collective whole: Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You drive us from You; give us Your other self. To whom shall we go? If we abandon You, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. See how Peter, by the gift of God and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, understood Him. How other than because he believed? You have the words of eternal life. For You have eternal life in the ministration of Your body and blood. And we have believed and have known. Not have known and believed, but believed and known. For we believed in order to know; for if we wanted to know first, and then to believe, we should not be able either to know or to believe. What have we believed and known? That You are Christ, the Son of God; that is, that You are that very eternal life, and that You give in Your flesh and blood only that which You are.
Tractate 27, para 9, here. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701027.htm
Like I said, everyone should read ALL his tractates and ask themselves "Does he sound more Catholic or Protestant here?"
I see no reason to accept your interpretation of "eat and you have believed already". That's the linchpin of your entire assertion about Augustine (and his teachings on the Eucharist). I see no reason to accept it because not only does reading more of Augustine than the quote "believe and you have eaten already" show more than a passing importance to the Eucharist, but even more importantly I don't recognize your authority to claim "believe and you have eaten already" defines all of what Augustine means about eating the sacrament.
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