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To: RnMomof7

“Calvin ... demonstrates... veneration of relics... Roman paganism...”

The early Christians were Jewish and the Hebrew people venerated relics. The early Christians continued with the practice that was found in the ancient traditions of their roots since the time of Moses.

Joshua 3:15; 1 Samuel 4-6;2 Samuel 11-12; numbers 21:9; 2nd Kings 13:21 - especially this one!;Acts 5:15; Acts 19:12

Exodus 29:37 - Clearly!! the Jewish people held that material “creatures” (created goods) had the ability to become sacred conduits for God’s power in the right circumstances.

The pagan Romans HATED the early Catholic Christians and martyred them - because their worship DIFFERED from pagan beliefs, not because they were the SAME as pagan Roman beliefs.

In particular the Roman pagans were suspicious of and killed the early Catholic Christians for their literal re enactment of the Lord’s supper (eucharist) on Sundays. The eucharist is explicitly referenced in the still preserved writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch who wrote within 50 years (or less) of the resurrection. There are other early records (Didache) that show beyond doubt that the earliest Christians were Catholic and had the mass and sacraments.

Calvin dropped sacred Tradition (small t tradition that bible warns against is NOT the same as sacred Tradition) and made up an interpretation of the bible that is his own own opinion in the 1500’s - over one thousand years after Christ.

Were both the eastern churches (Orthodox) and the western (Latin) churches in error for all of these centuries? of course not; it was Calvin who was in error with his made up biblical interpretations; did the Lord “protect” Christians from the Truth until the heresy of Calvin?

Saint Thomas Aquinas could out think and refute Calvin’s absurd premises in a nano second.

To reiterate: Jewish tradition allowed for the recognition of material relics as holy (see above biblical proof texts) and the early Christians continued the practice.


224 posted on 01/22/2015 6:33:19 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: stonehouse01; RnMomof7
the Hebrew people venerated relics.

Absolutely not. It is specifically prohibited. Especially dead things.

241 posted on 01/22/2015 9:14:39 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: stonehouse01

To reiterate: Jewish tradition allowed for the recognition of material relics as holy (see above biblical proof texts) and the early Christians continued the practice.


God also allowed divorce, but it was a recognition of our hearts, not HIS desires......................


374 posted on 01/23/2015 10:30:01 AM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: stonehouse01

To reiterate: Jewish tradition allowed for the recognition of material relics as holy (see above biblical proof texts) and the early Christians continued the practice.


I am partially in error in my prior post. Jewish TRADITION allowed for divorce, but God has always hated divorce. Do you think RC traditions are anymore trustworthy than Jewish tradition?

He has always hated graven images and idols also. Did you ever catch that in the Old testament? Relics are man made for mans purposes.

Why would God Never allow any earthly image of him?

He is a jealous God. Anything that distracts from Him is an idol.

Why would you rely on traditions when you have the primary source, the Bible, available to you.

Why would you pray to Mary when God invites you to speak with him as Father?


375 posted on 01/23/2015 11:31:36 AM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: stonehouse01

Let’s look at one of your examples - Numbers 21:9, and see if we can find some common ground.

Many were healed by faith at the time of Moses when they looked upon the bronze serpent on pole, a type of judgment of sin, representing the future death of Jesus on the cross. (John 3:13-18) That pole became a Jewish relic for 900 years, and the “honor” devolved into worship. Hezekiah was forced to, “brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.” [a bronze trifle] (2 Kings 18:4 KJV) It was said that Hezekiah “trusted in the LORD God of Israel” and “clave to the Lord and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments.” And the Lord was with him and prospered him. Its not the trinkets and trifles, but our faith in God because, “without faith it is impossible to please and be satisfactory to Him. For whoever would come near to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He is the rewarder of those who earnestly and diligently seek Him [out]. (Hebrews 11:6 AMP) - see all of Hebrews 11 for the faith connection.

The same thing happened with Gideon.

Judges 8:27 (AMP)
27 And Gideon made an ephod [a sacred, high priest’s garment] of it, and put it in his city of Ophrah, and all Israel paid homage to it there, and it became a snare to Gideon and to his family.

In Jesus day, no matter what the point of contact, the underlying Truth was the faith of the individual, connected with Love Himself, and not the object. Note the woman with the issue of blood who touched Jesus’ garment, He told her, “your faith has made you well!” (Luke 8:43-48) Only unbelief hindered Jesus’ work - And He did not do many works of power there, because of their unbelief. (Matthew 13:58) Often, it was just the individual believing and acting on the Word of Jesus - Centurion and Nobleman’s son. In the former Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.” (Matthew 8:10)

Exodus 20:3-6 (KJV)
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

In the Old Testament, numerous times God demonstrates His view of idolatry. Any person, place, or thing that you exalt above Him, or between you and Him, is a problem. Why? Because the “gods” of this world, the religious practices created by man or inspired by demons, can’t help you. They take you further away from His best. Your Heavenly Father LOVES you and knows what you need. He gives you the desires of your heart, even if you don’t fully understand them. (Psalm 37, 2 Corinthians 4:1-7)

Let’s look at the bones of Elisha. Were the men looking for his bones, or worshiping them? Or was this simply the Mercy of God? Is there any indication that this was repeated or even encouraged? Did not touching bones or the dead make you unclean? (Numbers 19) Should we all bed down with the bones of saints? A thousand times NO! God has something FAR, FAR, BETTER for Believers.

How many times was Israel snared by idolatry, or mixing religious practices with the worship ordained by God? There really is nothing new under the Sun. It was the same at the start of Christianity. As Gentile pagans converted, many brought with them their religious practices and superstitions. Just look at Israel in the wilderness. They left the religion of Egypt, stood in the presence of God, but the golden calf was still inside them, and manifested to the destruction of many. You can take people out of religion, but its much harder to get the religion out of people.

Note the many times NT writers, who were addressing Believers, reminded them to avoid idolatry. In the case of Paul, even the appearance of idolatry, that might cause someone else to stumble. That is very good advice for all to follow. (Acts 15, 1 Corinthians 6, 8 & 10, Galatians 4, 1 John 5:21)

That bone, relic, statue, incense, painting, or whatever is nothing on its own. Its what people make it to be that is the problem. Its what is in the heart and on the mind that counts. Does the object, since it is in the physical world, become more real to you than Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or your Heavenly Father? That is where you fall into the religious ditch. Do the trinkets and objects of worship distract you from the only LOVE that matters?

Hebrews 12:1-2 (AMP)
1 THEREFORE THEN, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who have borne testimony to the Truth], let us strip off and throw aside every encumbrance (unnecessary weight) and that sin which so readily (deftly and cleverly) clings to and entangles us, and let us run with patient endurance and steady and active persistence the appointed course of the race that is set before us,
2 Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. He, for the joy [of obtaining the prize] that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising and ignoring the shame, and is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

As a NT Believer, you are part of the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew or Gentile, male or female. If you are walking by faith and in the Spirit, what possible purpose would religious relics play, other than as a snare?

I encourage you to read Romans, Galatians, and Colossians carefully, as they address this issue quite thoroughly. Do religious relics gratify the flesh, or the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:5-17 (AMP)
5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6 Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7 [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God’s Law; indeed it cannot.
8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
9 But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].
10 But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you].
11 And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh [we are not obligated to our carnal nature], to live [a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates] of the flesh.
13 For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!
16 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
17 And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.

Read the passage above carefully to see WHO you are in Christ. Once this revelation sinks in, you will realize how silly it is to look to the rudiments of the world.

If Paul visited Rome today, and observed all the statues, paintings, relics etc., and the behavior of those who adore/venerate/worship these things, I wonder if would repeat what he said to the men of Athens - I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. (Acts 17:22) Don’t misunderstand the point. God loves beauty. He paves the streets of Heaven with pure gold and makes city gates out of a single pearl. (Revelation 21:21) However there, everyone knows WHO to worship. I suspect the poverty preachers will be quite shocked when they get to Heaven and realize they will not be living in a van down by the river - but I digress. God gives us richly all things to enjoy. (1 Timothy 6:17) Beautiful artwork is not a problem, until people begin to worship it. Sculpture is not sinful, until people are bowing to it, kissing its feet, and praying to it. Bones are just bones, until someone starts believing they have supernatural qualities. The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch is just a weapon designed to snuff out those who are naughty in God’s sight, that is until you pull the holy pin and count past 3 without lobbing it towards thy foe.

There is only one worthy of such worship.

Luke 4:6-8 (KJV)
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


390 posted on 01/23/2015 3:38:23 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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