Stop by the Holy church of the Milk Grotto and see our sacred art!
Posted on 01/21/2015 4:47:04 PM PST by RnMomof7
As a church history professor, I am sometimes asked how certain practices developed in church history. For example: When did the Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) emphasis on praying to saints and venerating relics and icons begin?
A somewhat obscure, but extremely helpful, book by John Calvin answers that question directly.
In his work, A Treatise on Relics, Calvin utilizes his extensive knowledge of church history to demonstrate that prayers to the saints, prayers for the dead, the veneration of relics, the lighting of candles (in homage to the saints), and the veneration of icons are all rooted in Roman paganism. Such practices infiltrated the Christian church after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in the fourth century.
Here is an excerpt from Calvin’s work that summarizes his thesis:
Hero-worship is innate to human nature, and it is founded on some of our noblest feelings, — gratitude, love, and admiration, — but which, like all other feelings, when uncontrolled by principle and reason, may easily degenerate into the wildest exaggerations, and lead to most dangerous consequences. It was by such an exaggeration of these noble feelings that [Roman] Paganism filled the Olympus with gods and demigods, — elevating to this rank men who have often deserved the gratitude of their fellow-creatures, by some signal services rendered to the community, or their admiration, by having performed some deeds which required a more than usual degree of mental and physical powers.
The same cause obtained for the Christian martyrs the gratitude and admiration of their fellow-Christians, and finally converted them into a kind of demigods. This was more particularly the case when the church began to be corrupted by her compromise with Paganism [during the fourth and fifth-centuries], which having been baptized without being converted, rapidly introduced into the Christian church, not only many of its rites and ceremonies, but even its polytheism, with this difference, that the divinities of Greece and Rome were replaced by Christian saints, many of whom received the offices of their Pagan predecessors.
The church in the beginning tolerated these abuses, as a temporary evil, but was afterwards unable to remove them; and they became so strong, particularly during the prevailing ignorance of the middle ages, that the church ended up legalizing, through her decrees, that at which she did nothing but wink at first.
In a footnote, Calvin gives specific examples of how Christians saints simply became substitutes for pagan deities.
Thus St. Anthony of Padua restores, like Mercury, stolen property; St. Hubert, like Diana, is the patron of sportsmen; St. Cosmas, like Esculapius, that of physicians, etc. In fact, almost every profession and trade, as well as every place, have their especial patron saint, who, like the tutelary divinity of the Pagans, receives particular hours from his or her protégés.
You can read the entire work on Google Books.
Calvin’s treatment includes a historical overview, quotes from the church fathers, and even citations from sixteenth-century Roman Catholic scholars. The result is an air-tight case for the true origin of many Catholic practices.
Calvin’s conclusion is that these practices are nothing more than idolatrous superstitions, rooted in ancient Roman paganism. Even today, five centuries later, his work still serves as a necessary warning to those who persist in such idolatry. Hence his concluding sentence: “Now, those who fall into this error must do so willingly, as no one can from henceforth plead ignorance on the subject as their excuse.”
An ANOMALLY you say? Let's look at the veracity of that statement.
Those close to Jesus.
Paul - Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009 3:25 pm indcatholicnews.com.
As the Year of Saint Paul draws to a close, two major archaeological discoveries have been made related to the saint. Pope Benedict announced yesterday, that fragments of bone from the first or second century have been found in a tomb in the Basilica of St Paul in Rome.
Speaking at St Paul's-Outside-the-Walls, on the eve of today's Feasts of St Peter and St Paul, the Holy Father said: "This seems to confirm the unanimous and undisputed tradition that these are the mortal remains of the Apostle Paul."
Tradition has always held that St Paul was buried with St Peter in a catacomb on the Via Appia, before being moved to a basilica erected in his honour. For centuries it was believed that his remains were buried beneath the altar.
That was in 2009!! They didn't really know and claim it was only "tradition" that claimed they were there. They still have no proof.
Thomas - After his death, the reputed relics of Saint Thomas the Apostle were enshrined as far as Mesopotamia in the 3rd century, {https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle}
Between A.D. 220 and 232 a merchant called Khabin removed greater portion of the relics to Edessa in Asia Minor. {http://www.santhomechurch.com/index.php/relics-of-st-thomas
Mark - Several stories. All agree he was martyred in Alexandria with some stating he was simply buried and others saying only his head was not. No specific known details obviously.
Luke - Not found till the second half of the fourth century? Probably some of those supposed relic that Constantine's mother brought back to Constantinople?
All in all not a stellar example of "devotion" to relics. By all accounts the "devotion" didn't much happen until Constantine helped form the Roman Catholic Church. It was his mother that went "relic hunting". Whose to say any of them are authentic?
No one. Simply claiming it is *reputed* is enough for Catholics to get the vapors and bow before it and pray before it.
A *fragment* of bone? Sure. They know just whose it might be. Anyone they want.
Catholic Holy Relics - the Holy Foreskin of Jesus and Vials of Mary's Milk
Stop by the Holy church of the Milk Grotto and see our sacred art!
You noticed that too ey?
Words fail me.......
It simply boggles the mind what some others think must be going on in the minds of others.
What insight into what’s going on in their minds.
That's the way it looks. Every one I read up on the words "reputed", "tradition says", supposedly and other ambiguous words are used. Bereans they are NOT.
The more I read up on that cult the more I think “magical mystery tour”. One would think a mature rational adult would be embarrassed to be associated.
Let’s look at one of your examples - Numbers 21:9, and see if we can find some common ground.
Many were healed by faith at the time of Moses when they looked upon the bronze serpent on pole, a type of judgment of sin, representing the future death of Jesus on the cross. (John 3:13-18) That pole became a Jewish relic for 900 years, and the “honor” devolved into worship. Hezekiah was forced to, “brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.” [a bronze trifle] (2 Kings 18:4 KJV) It was said that Hezekiah “trusted in the LORD God of Israel” and “clave to the Lord and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments.” And the Lord was with him and prospered him. Its not the trinkets and trifles, but our faith in God because, “without faith it is impossible to please and be satisfactory to Him. For whoever would come near to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He is the rewarder of those who earnestly and diligently seek Him [out]. (Hebrews 11:6 AMP) - see all of Hebrews 11 for the faith connection.
The same thing happened with Gideon.
Judges 8:27 (AMP)
27 And Gideon made an ephod [a sacred, high priest’s garment] of it, and put it in his city of Ophrah, and all Israel paid homage to it there, and it became a snare to Gideon and to his family.
In Jesus day, no matter what the point of contact, the underlying Truth was the faith of the individual, connected with Love Himself, and not the object. Note the woman with the issue of blood who touched Jesus’ garment, He told her, “your faith has made you well!” (Luke 8:43-48) Only unbelief hindered Jesus’ work - And He did not do many works of power there, because of their unbelief. (Matthew 13:58) Often, it was just the individual believing and acting on the Word of Jesus - Centurion and Nobleman’s son. In the former Jesus said, “Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.” (Matthew 8:10)
Exodus 20:3-6 (KJV)
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
In the Old Testament, numerous times God demonstrates His view of idolatry. Any person, place, or thing that you exalt above Him, or between you and Him, is a problem. Why? Because the “gods” of this world, the religious practices created by man or inspired by demons, can’t help you. They take you further away from His best. Your Heavenly Father LOVES you and knows what you need. He gives you the desires of your heart, even if you don’t fully understand them. (Psalm 37, 2 Corinthians 4:1-7)
Let’s look at the bones of Elisha. Were the men looking for his bones, or worshiping them? Or was this simply the Mercy of God? Is there any indication that this was repeated or even encouraged? Did not touching bones or the dead make you unclean? (Numbers 19) Should we all bed down with the bones of saints? A thousand times NO! God has something FAR, FAR, BETTER for Believers.
How many times was Israel snared by idolatry, or mixing religious practices with the worship ordained by God? There really is nothing new under the Sun. It was the same at the start of Christianity. As Gentile pagans converted, many brought with them their religious practices and superstitions. Just look at Israel in the wilderness. They left the religion of Egypt, stood in the presence of God, but the golden calf was still inside them, and manifested to the destruction of many. You can take people out of religion, but its much harder to get the religion out of people.
Note the many times NT writers, who were addressing Believers, reminded them to avoid idolatry. In the case of Paul, even the appearance of idolatry, that might cause someone else to stumble. That is very good advice for all to follow. (Acts 15, 1 Corinthians 6, 8 & 10, Galatians 4, 1 John 5:21)
That bone, relic, statue, incense, painting, or whatever is nothing on its own. Its what people make it to be that is the problem. Its what is in the heart and on the mind that counts. Does the object, since it is in the physical world, become more real to you than Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or your Heavenly Father? That is where you fall into the religious ditch. Do the trinkets and objects of worship distract you from the only LOVE that matters?
Hebrews 12:1-2 (AMP)
1 THEREFORE THEN, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who have borne testimony to the Truth], let us strip off and throw aside every encumbrance (unnecessary weight) and that sin which so readily (deftly and cleverly) clings to and entangles us, and let us run with patient endurance and steady and active persistence the appointed course of the race that is set before us,
2 Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. He, for the joy [of obtaining the prize] that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising and ignoring the shame, and is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
As a NT Believer, you are part of the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew or Gentile, male or female. If you are walking by faith and in the Spirit, what possible purpose would religious relics play, other than as a snare?
I encourage you to read Romans, Galatians, and Colossians carefully, as they address this issue quite thoroughly. Do religious relics gratify the flesh, or the Holy Spirit?
Romans 8:5-17 (AMP)
5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6 Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7 [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God’s Law; indeed it cannot.
8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
9 But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].
10 But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you].
11 And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh [we are not obligated to our carnal nature], to live [a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates] of the flesh.
13 For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!
16 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
17 And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.
Read the passage above carefully to see WHO you are in Christ. Once this revelation sinks in, you will realize how silly it is to look to the rudiments of the world.
If Paul visited Rome today, and observed all the statues, paintings, relics etc., and the behavior of those who adore/venerate/worship these things, I wonder if would repeat what he said to the men of Athens - I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. (Acts 17:22) Don’t misunderstand the point. God loves beauty. He paves the streets of Heaven with pure gold and makes city gates out of a single pearl. (Revelation 21:21) However there, everyone knows WHO to worship. I suspect the poverty preachers will be quite shocked when they get to Heaven and realize they will not be living in a van down by the river - but I digress. God gives us richly all things to enjoy. (1 Timothy 6:17) Beautiful artwork is not a problem, until people begin to worship it. Sculpture is not sinful, until people are bowing to it, kissing its feet, and praying to it. Bones are just bones, until someone starts believing they have supernatural qualities. The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch is just a weapon designed to snuff out those who are naughty in God’s sight, that is until you pull the holy pin and count past 3 without lobbing it towards thy foe.
There is only one worthy of such worship.
Luke 4:6-8 (KJV)
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Not really...The Catholic invented a word for her special condition...She was sleeping so soundly that everyone thought she was dead when she was only in 'dormition'...
So? What is that five, six cases? All of them from a period when being a Christian was a capital crime.
The bones of 15,000 Roman martyrs are in the columns around the altar of St. Peter’s.
There are some SECONDARY relics of Mary, even a couple of HOUSES she is said to have lived in. Just no relics of her body.
The absence of any CLAIMED relics of Mary is also an anomaly.
The only thing that could prevent all potential fraudsters from claiming to have relics of Mary is that they knew that NOBODY WOULD BELIEVE THEM—because all Christians believed that Mary’s body was totally unavailable—having been assumed into heaven.
Tell it to the people who have posted hundreds of thousands of times on FR that such-and-such MUST BE FALSE because it is not asserted in Scripture.
Do they or do they not know what “sola scriptura” means?
Blessed Anne, Edgar Cayce, Silvia Brown...
What a hoot...
Nothing I’ve said depends on the genuineness of any claims about relics or houses or clothing of Mary.
My argument has NOTHING TO DO with the existence of any such secondary relics—real or fake.
What needs to be explained is the total absence of any CLAIMED relics of Mary’s body.
The ONLY explanation for that absence is that all potential fraudsters knew that all Christians believed, from the very beginning of Christianity, that any claimed relic of Mary’s body MUST be phony.
You gotta do better than myths. Most every road of relics leads to Constantine’s mother Helena in one way or another. Putting your eternal destiny in that much speculation and “coulda been” is building on sand not the solid foundation of Christ.
But why didn’t anyone speak up in defense of the “truth” that Mary died and was buried?
Not one of the apostles, not one of the Apostolic Fathers or the next generation or the next or the next.
None of them attacked this FRAUD of the Assumption. Nobody.
Your theory is, then, that all of the apostles, and Paul, and the entire next generation, and the next, and the next, were fraudsters.
The entire Christian church was fraudsters.
And yet you take the Scriptures that these fraudsters wrote and assembled seriously?
Of course Arthur. You call it the "ONLY explanation". Well, the other explanation is that no one even took time to write or record anything bout her after Pentecost. The other explanation is that those who recorded the events of that time did not consider her of any relevance whatsoever. Neither secular nor religious historians paid any attention until the third century. Then because of some "vision" they 100s of years later decided it would make some money to claim a place of Mary's residence with no real evidence.
Just another sandy foundation for a false religion Arthur.
Because there was no assumption...And no one claimed there was an assumption...There was nothing to attack...
What an argument...Jesus drove a red corvette into heaven...His license plates were never found so we know it's true...No one back then said he didn't, so he must have...
They take Jesus, December 25, good Friday and easter Sunday seriously..
And if one studies enough, all of that is based on catholic mother church traditions..
The only thing that is ‘scriptura’ is the name Jesus and scripture and translators have allowed questions to pop up on the name Jesus too...
The daughters on here are only to quick to pick on her mother, but at their core, they share the same gospel...
And the same Mary..
And they don’t see the irony... almost like it is a mystery to them...
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