Posted on 01/06/2015 9:09:15 AM PST by marshmallow
Church closures have reached flood stage in northern Europe. According to the Wall Street Journal (“Europe’s empty churches go on sale”, unfortunately available only to subscribers), some 515 Catholic churches have been closed in Germany over the last decade and it is estimated that two-thirds of the 1600 Catholic churches in the Netherlands will be closed over the next decade. Seven hundred Protestant churches are also slated to close there over the next four years.
This trend creates obvious pressure to repurpose many large, old, expensive and high-maintenance structures. Churches are being converted to civic cultural uses where possible, such as libraries, art galleries, concert halls and fitness centers. St. Joseph’s Catholic church in Arnheim, Netherlands has become a skateboard hall for kids, and of course churches of all denominations have been converted to shops and restaurants.
Even where I am writing, in Manassas, Virginia, we have one old downtown church (not Catholic) which has been a restaurant for years. I do not know whether it is a judgment that no restaurant has ever prospered there, but different proprietors and chefs keep trying.
In England, an Anglican church, with its nice high ceilings, serves as the circus training school for Circomedia. In Scotland, a Lutheran church has become a Frankenstein-themed bar. The hot new idea is to sell unused churches as homes for rich people who abhor the bourgeois boredom of standard dwellings. Considering the spatial volume, old churches come cheap. But it does take money to convert and maintain them.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicculture.org ...
The "law" is the Mosaic Law and specifically, its ceremonial and civil aspects. The Mosaic Law also contained a moral aspect.
The ceremonial and civil aspects of the Mosaic Law became not only useless, but false and superstitious, and thus forbidden when the Gospel of Jesus was promulgated. These aspects of the law included dietary rules, the sacrificing of animals etc.
It was otherwise with the moral precepts of the Mosaic Law. Jesus expressly taught that the observance of these, in as much as they are prescribed by nature herself, is necessary for salvation — "If thou wouldst enter into life keep the commandments". John 14:15. Of these commandments those words of His are especially true — "I came not to destroy the law but to fulfil it."
Again:
And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19: 16-18.
As was suited to a law of love which replaced the Mosaic Law of fear, Christ wished to attract men to obey His precepts out of motives of charity and filial obedience, rather than compel submission by threats of punishment. He promised spiritual blessings rather than temporal, and taught His followers to despise the goods of this world in order to fix their affections on the future joys of life eternal. He was not content with a bare observance of the law, He boldly proposed to His disciples the infinite goodness and holiness of God for their model, and urged them to be perfect as their heavenly Father is perfect.
Nevertheless, obedience to the Commandments is most definitely essential for eternal life. That much is perfectly clear.
Use some common sense. The First Commandment is "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange Gods before me".
Explain to us when that became obsolete and nonessential for salvation.
Not one jot or tittle will in any way pass from Torah until all of Torah and the Prophets is fulfilled (and the Prophets carry well beyond the millennial reign).
All y'all might do well to try this exercise:
Read Paul again... but this time, wherever the word 'sin' is used, substitute the Biblical definition of sin: 'Transgression of Torah'.
Wherever you find 'lawless' or 'iniquity' substitute 'without Torah'.
Wherever you find 'wicked' substitute 'twisting of Torah'.
You will find Paul to be the most erudite defender of Torah.
Use some common sense. The First Commandment is "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange Gods before me". Explain to us when that became obsolete and nonessential for salvation.
At the very same time that this one became obsolete:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Your religion is obviously completely ignorant of the transformation thru the book of Acts to salvation by Grace thru Faith without the works of ANY law...It is the FREE GIFT of God...
Again, the law spoken of is the Mosaic law.
And to accept the gift of salvation, one must take up one's cross and follow Jesus.
"And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9:23
Good luck with that gut feeling that your ticket's already punched.
The bible doesn't differentiate...That's a man made concept...
All people are created in the image of God. Doesn’t that mean all cultures, all races?
And if the maintenance has been neglected for a while then I hope you have very deep pockets.
My brother's church is in a lovely historic building. I adore the stained glass and all the woodwork and stone. Sadly they will have to sell it as the former pastor did zero maintenance for almost two decades. The pipes leak, the wiring is shot, the stone work is crumbing and the stained glass is now in danger of falling out.
The congregation has shrunk as the town population has declined and the parishioners who remain no longer have high paying jobs.
It is heartbreaking.
Your understanding of the Bible is "man made". That's the problem.
And yes, the Bible does differentiate. I posted the words of Jesus Himself which advise us to "keep the commandments". Jesus actually ties the words "love" and "commandments" together......."if you love me, keep my commandments".
Paul does not contradict the Gospels. He's talking about the ceremonial and civil aspects of the Mosaic Law.
Other dictionaries disagree.
That's nuts...The Ten Commandments are a quick summary of the rest of the laws detailed in Exodus and Deut...The law (all of it) was given to show us what sin is...
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
So who is that??? Who is Paul talking about who will have no sin imputed to him??? Apparently there aren't any Catholics in that bunch...
The Ten Commandments are not a "quick summary". The Mosaic Law consisted of ceremonial, civil and moral components. The Ten Commandments are included in the latter and as posted above, in Matthew's Gospel Jesus prescribes them when asked how heaven is attained.
You must read Paul through the Gospels. Cherry-picking a few verses from Romans and Galatians will get you into dangerous waters.
Jesus said...."So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:16-19
So Jesus says that He did not come to abolish "the law", yet Paul says that the "the law" is abolished.
So what's going on here? Are they conradicting each other?
So who is that??? Who is Paul talking about who will have no sin imputed to him???
Blessed is the man who has retained his baptismal innocence, that no grievous sin can be imputed to him. And, likewise, blessed is the man, who after falling into sin, has done penance and leads a virtuous life that sin is no more imputed to him.
HaHa...That ain't bible...Esop's Fables???
You seem to have trouble reading, or believing simple scripture...Do you get any of this???
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Can you notice any difference here???
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Things that are different are not the same...The bible knocks your religion out of the park at every swing...
I’m not denying that at all, but who would you be rather with: your family or with your neighbors?
Get the drift?
Indeed it is "Bible"
Lest again, when I come, God humble me among you: and I mourn many of them that sinned before, and have not done penance for the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness, that they have committed. 2Corinthians 12:21
"The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance".2 Peter 3:9
"And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom became dark, and they gnawed their tongues for pain: And they blasphemed the God of heaven, because of their pains and wounds, and did not penance for their works". Revelation 16:11
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not incredulous to the heavenly vision. But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance." Acts 26:20
It's absolutely clear that you don't. Until you address the question I posed in my previous post, your cut and paste is meaningless, since it assumes as fact your understanding of the word "law". It isn't.
Let's try again:
From my previous post:
Jesus said...."So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one title shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:16-19
So Jesus says that He did not come to abolish "the law", yet Paul says that the "the law" is abolished.
So what's going on here? Are they contradicting each other?
Feel free to answer.
We understand that reconciling the words of Jesus in the Gospels with Paul's letters isn't a favorite past time for Protestants but give it a go.
I’ve got a great church family and it includes people from India, the Philippines, Mexico, as well as Native Americans.
Of course they are...Anyone who can read can see that...The deal is to understand why...
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Compared to this very clear contradiction...
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom_4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Compared to...
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Of course there are contradictions...Who can't see that???
Lest again, when I come, God humble me among you: and I mourn many of them that sinned before, and have not done penance for the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness, that they have committed. 2Corinthians 12:21
Out of the top 20 or so bibles out there only one stands out as coming from a separate line than the others, the KJV...Those other 19+ are all Catholic bibles...They all come from the Wescott and Hort Greek texts which are the Catholic texts originating in Africa...
And of those there is only ONE that mistranslates repent into penance...There is no penance...It's made up by your religion...
We're all ears...!!
Is the "law" of which Jesus speaks the same "law" of which St. Paul speaks?
Here's Jesus again:
"And one of them, a doctor of the law, asking him, tempting him: Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets. Matthew: 22: 35-40
Yeah, that's right.....the same law that's been abolished. Jesus didn't get the memo.....ROFL!!
And of those there is only ONE that mistranslates repent into penance...There is no penance...It's made up by your religion...
Right. Conspiracy theories are all that's left to you.
There couldn't possibly be anything amiss with your theology, could there??
I presume this is a mistranslation, also:
"If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" Col 1 :23-24.
And this.."And he said to them: This kind can go out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting." Mark 9:28
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