Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone
The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.
But you have to work to earn that grace right?
On a grade 1-12 level the nuns taught you well. God gives you grace through which you strengthen your faith, refrain from sin, grow in charity in the Church and attain salvation. You are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone, just like the Bible and the nuns teach us.
The Church certainly would condemn Tyndale for his heresy, both salvation by faith alone, — directly negated in the Bible, — and mortality of soul. The remark about Anglicans killing him was simply to set the record straight as to not who condemned him but who executed him.
That Anglicans are not like Lutherans or Calvinists is true. Neither are Lutherans like Calvinists. Neither are Methodists like Presbyterians. Neither are Mormons like Jehova’s Witnesses. Neither are Baptists like Congregationalists. You have to forgive my lack of interest in convolutions of Protestantism.
Any translation can be a basis for another translation for aspects of grammar and vocabulary. This does not make Tyndale’s or Wycliff translations free from heresy.
And the better they know it, the more likely they are to be Catholic or Orthodox, the two apostolic churches that teach correct biblical doctrine.
Yes, Seven Churches in Asia. You wanted to talk about them? What, exactly? Try using sentences that have a noun, and a verb in them and arrive at a question or a conclusion.
Two girls and a fountain.
This does not teach Sola Scriptura, but it does point out that the Deuterocanon is inspired scripture.
God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:4-10)
Thank you. Another important aspect of this passage is that it calls “all scripture” that Timothy (of mixed Greek and Jewish extraction) “hast known from infancy” is “inspired by God”. That “all scripture” that diaspora Jews knew was Greek Septuagint, and it included the Deuterocanonical books.
Yes. The Holy Ghost.
Next post: But you have to work to earn that grace right?
No, your good works are the result of grace, not a payment for grace.
God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:4-10)
Welcome to Christianity in that case.
However, for catholicism it's this.
•" . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'" (CCC 2068).
•"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
14 Σὺ δὲ μένε ἐν οἷς ἔμαθες καὶ ἐπιστώθης, εἰδὼς παρὰ τίνος ἔμαθες,15 καὶ ὅτι ἀπὸ βρέφους τὰ ἱερὰ γράμματα οἶδας, τὰ δυνάμενά σε σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν διὰ πίστεως τῆς ἐν χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.
16 Πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος καὶ ὠφέλιμος πρὸς διδασκαλίαν, πρὸς ἔλεγχον, πρὸς ἐπανόρθωσιν, πρὸς παιδείαν τὴν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ•
17 ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος, πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος.
And just for tracking purposes, here’s the English:
(14) But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;We can see from the above passage there’s nothing wrong with Timothy remembering what Paul taught him in person. He was a living apostle, after all, and you don’t see those every day. But there's no hint here that anything Paul taught in person was different from anything he wrote in Scripture, or that the written apostolic record could ever be trumped by claims of newly discovered whispers from the past or oracles of the present.(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Here's the problem. These debates tend to get derailed because people get confused about what "sufficiency" we really are talking about. The word that comes much closer to speaking of sufficiency is “artios” (perfect), found in verse 17, and it’s derived form, “exartismenos” (throughly furnished), (both bolded above in verse 17) both of which are used to convey the idea of the total sufficiency of the man of God for any aspect of Christian life as a result of using Scripture!:
Strong’s Greek #739 739 ἄρτιος [artios /ar•tee•os/] adj. From 737; TDNT 1:475; TDNTA 80; GK 787; AV translates as “perfect” once. 1 fitted. 2 complete, perfect. 2A having reference apparently to “special aptitude for given uses”.Strong’s Greek #1822 1822 ἐξαρτίζω [exartizo /ex•ar•tid•zo/] v. From 1537 and a derivative of 739; TDNT 1:475; TDNTA 80; GK 1992; Two occurrences; AV translates as “accomplish + 1096” once, and “thoroughly furnish” once. 1 to complete, finish. 1A to furnish perfectly. 1B to finish, accomplish, (as it were, to render the days complete).
This sort of sufficiency doesn't happen in a vacuum, but is always directed to a purpose, here, the making of a man (and presumably also a woman) of God, and as such must of course begin with the wisdom of salvation by faith in Christ, but it must run on to the other areas mentioned, doctrine, proving error, correcting fault, and cultivating righteousness.
In fact, if you notice, the two words amplify each other. Paul appears to be intentionally using this word play to amplify the sense of total completeness he is trying to convey. And while he certainly wants Timothy to remember the truths he taught him in person, this completeness of preparation has as its proper grammatical referent the God-breathed Scriptures and nothing else.
Think of it this way (I know you've heard this before, but please bear with me). An old prospector who has actually been to King Solomon’s mines tells a young man, look, the mines are real, I’ve seen them myself. It’s all true. But here’s a diary, written in King Solomon own words, and in it everything you need to know for the purpose of finding the mines and making good use of them. And sonny I mean everything you need for those purposes, every map, every trap, every hidden passage, every vein of ore, every user manual for every piece of equipment, it’s all there. I’m old, and when I’m gone, it’ll be up to you. But you can do this, because you have the diary.
That’s the sufficiency we’re talking about. We do not say that Scriptures enables us to know everything that can be known of God's truth. We DO say the Scriptures contain enough information to make a complete job of producing sufficient wisdom about faith in Christ both to be saved and to live in a way that is pleasing to God:
Going back to our passage, consider what Paul says of Scripture’s relevance to salvation:
(verse 15b) τὰ δυνάμενά σε σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν διὰ πίστεως τῆς ἐν χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ.
"which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
The word “able” here means “power,” (dunamena) and describes Scripture as having the power to make Timothy wise (sophisai) unto (up to the level of) (eis), salvation (soterian) which is by faith in Jesus Christ.
So again, not ALL knowledge, but enough to produce salvation in Timothy. Which accords with Paul’s other comment on the Gospel message:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Note the nearly identical pattern of words here, which holds up in the Greek as well. Combining the two passages, we see that Paul understands the Scriptures as having the same power on their own as Paul does in his own preaching, the power to produce salvation. We also see that Paul in neither case is justifying a secondary stream of data different from or additional to Scripture, but instead is showing the essential harmony between the living example of his preaching with the truths already contained in Scripture.
Which gets us to another key misrepresentation of Sola Scripture. Like Paul, we do NOT see Scripture as simply words on a page. The communication of God’s message to the world isn’t some dead intellectual process. It is a living word, because it is energized by God Himself in hearts and minds of those who hear it:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick [old English “alive”], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
So God’s word is alive. As such, it always accomplishes exactly what God send it out to do. Always:
Isa 55:10-11 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
And this is true. God’s word in any form will accomplish the task to which He sends it. Not everyone receives the Holy Spirit. These are the carnal hearers, as Paul says, who cannot understand spiritual things, who can know intellectually that Messiah must be born in Bethlehem, but cannot accept Jesus of Bethlehem, even though he raises the dead, because they are trapped in their carnality.
But for the man of God, one who has a heart open to the Holy Spirit of God, those Scriptures were indeed sufficient for guidance in all important matters of faith and life, as with Simeon, who anticipated the coming Christ, and no doubt was well familiar with the OT Scriptures concerning the Consolation of Israel, as was Timothy, but not as a strictly intellectual matter, but bound up with his personal faith and the work of the Holy Spirit in his life:
Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (26) And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Which gets us back to the typical error in understanding how we employ this passage in Timothy to support the sufficiency of Scripture. We do not see 2Tim3:16 as describing only OT Scripture, because Paul, after making his point to Timothy about indeed being able to discover salvation in the then extant Scriptures, goes on to generalize the principle. He explains the “Why.” Scripture has this power, Paul is effectively saying, because it is God-breathed (theopneustos). He then llists the characteristics of such God-breathed writings. They have, taken as a whole (which is what Paul does), the power to lead one not only to a saving understanding of Christ, but also to successfully live the life of a Christian fully equipped for all righteousness.
BTW, Paul, especially in the Greek, is emphatic here that the scope of this preparation for Godly living is absolutely comprehensive. The preparation provided by Scripture, taken as a whole, is compete. There is no equivocation here, and no looking to alternate streams of necessary information missing from the Scripture. Besides, all of our righteousness as believers is by way of calling:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
And these are the same set of good works for which, Paul says, we are completely prepared by way of Scripture. No Christian can get by without these essentials, whether ministering or being ministered to, and they are all covered in Scripture.
Peace,
SR
A logical, well reasoned post grounded in Scripture.
You will no doubt get slimed for posting this.
Then please show where the "Holy Ghost" shows the apostles teaching the assumption of Mary.
>>No, your good works are the result of grace, not a payment for grace.<<
As is faith. Faith is given us by the grace of God. Salvation is by grace through faith.
I need to read up on that. I am always getting twisty-tailed around, barking after the elusive rear-end of my own ignorance.
To hard for them to understand that.
You knocked it out of the park!
I thought it was great.
What they need is deprogramming from the cult of Catholicism.
Rom 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
SR, Thank you for your good thoughts, and even your good cut-and-pastes. I appreciate your time and also your insight.
Every reference to the "Gospel" in St. Paul --- certainly all which you quoted --- confirm the point about the essential role of tradition, since at the time Paul's letters were written, the entire Gospel was Oral Tradition.
I am referencing the generally agreed fact that Paul's Epistles were all written before his death (duh!) around 67 AD, and this was before at least 3 of the four gospels were written, and probably even before Mark.
This means people were constantly being urged to keep, cling to, follow, be faithful to, be obedient to, the Gospel as transmitted by Apostolic preaching. Which is what we mean by Oral or Apostolic Tradition.
Correct
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