Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[redleghunter]

I believe Judah Ben Hur was #47 on the galley.

[xzins]

Those were clear for any student of the bible.

[annalex]

Merry Christmas!

I have a present for you:

This icon shows Christ, on his Mother's lap, receives the vision of the instruments of His torture and clings to His mother. Please pray that we receive her consolation when the hour of our trial comes.

Holy Inspired Scriptures is the standard in which we test truth claims on doctrine, church conduct, discipline, and traditions.

That is false, heretical and anti-scriptural statement. If it were true, the Holy Scripture would have contained something like that. It doesn't.

The Holy Scripture is to be studied, proclaimed, used in arguments -- all that, just like St. Paul said to St. Timothy. That is the Catholic teaching. In fact the entire Scripture -- "All scripture", as St. Paul pointedly said, including the seven Deuterocanonical books that Protestants redacted from their castrated "canon" -- is the teaching of the Catholic Church. As such it is an important part of the rule of faith -- what you call "the standard in which we test truth claims on doctrine, church conduct, discipline, and traditions". But it is not the entire rule of faith: the entire teaching of the Holy Catholic Church in atiquity, Middle Ages and our age is. That is biblical:

I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:16-17)

the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. (John 14:26)

Observe: the Holy Ghost will speak in all times. The Holy Scripture is not mentioned even though, of course, the Holy Ghost inspired it as well.

I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee [Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matthew 16:18-19)

if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matthew 18:17-18)

Observe: that is what the rule looks like: You decide what the rule is on earth and Christ binds and looses according to that rule in heaven. Who gets to decide? People, not books. Should they consult the Scripture? Of course. But the Scripture is not mentioned. The important thing is that they agree "in His name".

This is why the exercise: where the prayers to Mary are in the scripture? -- is silly.

[daniel1212]

And as the Reformers pointed out Sola Scriptura meant to them all creeds, confessions, doctrines and rules of faith must meet the muster of Holy Inspired Scriptures for all truth claims.

For as often shown, the fact is that it is abundantly evidenced that Scripture was the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

And which testifies (Lk. 24:27,44, etc.) to writings of God being recognized and established as being so (essentially due to their unique and enduring heavenly qualities and attestation), and thus they materially provide for a canon of Scripture (as well as for reason, the church, etc.)

While before before any Scripture was written, God expressly spoke in a very limited way to a very limited amount of people, using men whom He supernaturally attested were of God, yet as written, the written word of God became the supreme standard, as Ps. 119 among multitude other tests, testifies to.

To which body additional conflative, complimentary writings were added.

While RCs assert that the church is the supreme rule of faith, this imagines that the church established itself upon its own authority - which in fact Rome effectively does - but the Lord and the NT church did so under the premise of the Scriptures being the supreme standard, as the wholly inspired word of God.

No other distinct body of truth has this claim, despite some RCs who assert that some Catholic teaching which expresses oral tradition is wholly inspired of God, or that "infallible" statements do, while all Truth claims are subject to testing by Scripture.

And under which the magisterium has its authority, and can issue penalties for dissent against its judgement, which could even mean death. But never under the premise of perpetual assured magisterial infallibility, which is an unnecessary novelty in Scripture.

RCs cannot establish this as Scriptural, nor such traditions as prayer to departed saints in Heaven, despite their spurious extrapolations based upon fallacious premises, and thus their typical recourse is assert one needs Rome in order to see these things. For under they imagine an infallible magisterium is essential to correctly know which writings are of God, even adding to Scripture obscure disputed books, and their meaning.

For in reality, the basis for RC assurance of Truth is not the weight of Scriptural substantiation, by the premise of the assured veracity of Rome herself.

Thus with the strongly deceived RCs, no amount of evidence moves them, anymore than it does a committed hardened atheists. Both of which condemned souls would support such things as putting evangelicals to the sword, as in the past. For "as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Galatians 4:29)

[terycarl]

You mean like all those "good" Catholics who go to mass on Saturday evening so they can sleep in or go golfing Sunday morning rather than going to church?

I think the Catholic church may have allowed that practice to ensure that those who work on Sundays ie:Police, fire personnel, merchants,institutional personnel, etc could still fulfill their Sunday obligations.

I'm certain that Christ can figure it out and let's face it, attending Mass ANYTIME is of extraordinary benefit to ANYONE.

[terycarl]

Guess what? I've given up nothing, I'm NOT sad, much less very sad, And I KNOW I have eternal life through Jesus Christ the righteous. Anyone who doesn't have that assurance is leading a very sad life indeed.

I have some empathy for the "do it yourself Christians" Never mind 2,000 years of Christian history, never mind the church that Jesus personally founded, never mind Biblical teachings, never mind the Eucharist....I'll make up my own rules and consider myself SAVED because.......well, because I said so!!!! that's why!

[boatbums]

the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. (John 14:26) Observe: the Holy Ghost will speak in all times. The Holy Scripture is not mentioned even though, of course, the Holy Ghost inspired it as well.

As you have abundantly shown, even WHEN the Scriptures are given to you that prove sola Scriptura and sola fide, you reject them anyway. That's why I find it awfully disingenuous for you to place your church OVER Divinely-inspired Scripture. Just what exactly do you imagine the Holy Spirit "bringing to remembrance whatsoever I have said to you" means other than the enscripturation of Jesus' teachings? We have FOUR gospel accounts that do that and we also have the continued revelation from God to the early believers in the form of WRITTEN epistles. Do you trust the memory alone of sinful men to ensure God's truth remains pure? The Old Testament books were examples of the prophets of the Lord writing down His revelation - under God's instructions to do just that - so that we have His truths preserved for all time. Heaven and earth will pass away but the word of God will never pass away.

The Holy Spirit speaks in all times THROUGH the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures and is who opens hearts to receive it and believe so that we are saved. It is why even the first Christians NEVER accepted the seven Apocyrphal books as equal to what they KNEW was divinely inspired Scripture. Maybe it's the Catholic's Bible that needs circumcision - the extraneous foreskin of humanly devised fables, myths, legends and musings don't belong with God's sacred word.

[boatbums]

I think the Catholic church may have allowed that practice to ensure that those who work on Sundays ie:Police, fire personnel, merchants,institutional personnel, etc could still fulfill their Sunday obligations. I'm certain that Christ can figure it out and let's face it, attending Mass ANYTIME is of extraordinary benefit to ANYONE.

sounds like a good excuse to play golf on Sunday mornings rather than go to church!!!

[boatbums]

I have some empathy for the "do it yourself Christians" Never mind 2,000 years of Christian history, never mind the church that Jesus personally founded, never mind Biblical teachings, never mind the Eucharist....I'll make up my own rules and consider myself SAVED because.......well, because I said so!!!! that's why!

Well, I can't speak for you, but I know I am saved because JESUS said so! Would you like me to show you where?

[ealgeone]

Your picture of a large adult Mary with a very small grown up Jesus sitting on her lap is the exact epitome of how Catholicism views Mary and Jesus. Mary is much, much bigger than Jesus.

I'll pray to Christ when the storms come.

[redleghunter]

Me: Holy Inspired Scriptures is the standard in which we test truth claims on doctrine, church conduct, discipline, and traditions.

You: That is false, heretical and anti-scriptural statement. If it were true, the Holy Scripture would have contained something like that. It doesn’t.

How many times are you going to deny what I stated above was substantiated with Holy Scriptures especially 2 Tim 3-4? Also how CynicalBear pointed out a large sample of early church fathers saying the same thing.

[CynicalBear]

>>Observe: that is what the rule looks like: You decide what the rule is on earth and Christ binds and looses according to that rule in heaven.<<

I know that's what the Catholic Church thinks and teaches but it's not what the Holy Spirit had written in scripture. What the Holy Spirit had written in scripture shows that the apostles were only to bind whatever already existed in heaven eternally. Jesus was commanding them to bind only what existed from eternity as truth. The Catholic Church changed the word that means "I am" into "will be".

No where in scripture are the apostles or anyone else given the authority to determine what is bound in heaven. They were told to declare what has been bound in heaven for eternity.

I will say that only those who God is calling to be His will actually study and understand that.

[annalex]

I don't see anything of substance in your post.

Except that, yes, you may become a saint as well when you die. Do you pray to them? You should.

Here is the icon of St. Stephen the First Martyr, celebrated today.

Saint Stephen, pray for us

[annalex]

1 Corinthians 4:6

A good way to avoid unproductive arguments is indeed to keep them rooted in written materials of the Church, and especially canonical scripture.

Romans 15:3-4

Indeed, the Holy Scripture is written to teach us.

Merry Christmas. Here's a present.

Saint Paul, pray for us.

[CynicalBear]

>>I'll pray to Christ when the storms come.<<

Those who put their trust in Mary are going to be sorely disappointed one day. While they give secondary lip service to Jesus it's obvious that Mary takes center stage and primary importance to them.

[annalex]

I stand corrected. All perfect.

[annalex]

It is Catholic teaching that the Church may not contradict the Holy Scripture because the Church my not contradict herself. The Holy Scripture is to be loved and studied, and followed. You illustrated this from the fathers of the Church. Very good.

Now about the Scripture being the single and complete rule of faith. THAT is an error. You understand the difference? If not, I can explain.

Merry Christmas. This is a present for you:

Let us pray.
All-holy Mary, your survive and conquer the enemies of the Church.
Pray for us and lead us to Thy Son.
Amen.

[annalex]

"full of grace", "κεχαριτωμενη" ... isnt' true

It is true, and evidently so.

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God.

Yes, it is possible to be saved on the faith alone for someone unable to do work. As specifically to Abraham:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? (James 2:21-24)

You understand the difference between the exceptional and the general rule? Luther invented the theory that faith alone justifies without good works in general. That has no basis in scripture.

Holy Abraham, our forefather in faith,
Help us know and understand the Holy Scripture.
Make our faith perfected in good works in imitation of thee.
Amen.

[CynicalBear]

>>you may become a saint as well when you die.<<

Why do you deny what the Holy Spirit says in scripture?

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Living in Jerusalem! NOT dead.

Acts 9:32 Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.

Livingt in Lydda!! NOT dead.

Acts 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Must have been living to have been put in prison!

Philippians 4:21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.

Greeting LIVING saints!

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

More LIVING saints!!

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place -- both theirs and ours:

CALLED SAINTS!!!!

In Roman Catholic theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In scripture, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In Catholicism the hierarchy in Rome denies what scripture says. In scripture, saints are called to revere, worship, and pray to God alone. The Roman Catholic Church has corrupted what the Holy Spirit through scripture teaches.

[annalex]

I thought we set this aside until you post a thread on the passage?

Why jump from thread to thread? You don't believe the Holy Scripture -- this is a free country. Believe what you will.

hundreds of millions of Christians, who have no such limitation, disagree

Well, of course they disagree. What Christ taught is a difficult doctrine. Most people prefer inventing some easy theology and call that their gospel. Luther was not the first to do so and he won't be the last. But they all will be dust, and the Church lead by the Holy Ghost, will be just fine.

Any faith that doesn’t result in works is a dead faith

Precisely. So therefore we are not saved by faith alone.

Lord Jesus,
May Thy Holy Eucharist bring us to everlasting life.

Merry Christmas!