Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[CynicalBear]

>>Kind of a pretty prayer...could you provide the name of the author and the date that the Catholic Church accepted it as part of church teaching??.......thought so.<<

It’s found here: http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=31

Now tell us how catholic.org is not a sanctioned Catholic site.

[terycarl]

Saying that Mary is the mother of God denies the Incarnation. Saying that Mary is the mother of Jesus, does not. Calling her the mother of God only focuses on one part of His identity. Calling her mother of Jesus recognizes both natures.

Now do you see what falling away from Christ's true church and forming your own interpretation of scripture leads to>>>sad.

[ealgeone]

No. It is not plausible that she was just buried and forgotten, because that would be ABSOLUTELY ATYPICAL behavior on the part of the early Christians. I don’t know how many of the bodies of the apostles were preserved and venerated, but relics of Peter, Paul, and at least several apostles are preserved. In St. Peter’s Basilica, the bones of about 15,000 martyrs are inside the columns of the Bernini baldacchino—those four twisty columns around the main altar. The tombs of who-knows-how-many other martyrs and saints are all over Rome and cities all over the Mediterranean region.

We're 100% certain about Paul and Peter?

So we only have a few of these relic things.

Again, you presume Mary held the lofty position she did in the early church.

Isn't it a possibility she didn't? I think you have to concede that.

Whether or not all of the “relics” are genuine is beside the point. Nobody, absolutely nobody ever tried to claim that he had relics of Mary’s body. There is only one thing that could possibly have prevented somebody from falsely claiming to have relics of Mary: a consensus of all Christians that nobody COULD have relics of Mary.

I would think a "relic" being genuine would be key....wouldn't you?

[CynicalBear]

Hey, that Newman feller also said that Catholics incorporate paganism is their worship of God which is a direct disobedience of God’s command.

[Resettozero]

R2z : “vlad’s gone into the deep side of the pool tonight.”

vlad : Well, many anti-Catholics are from the shallow end of the human gene pool.

It was a simple way of saying you're apparently getting in over your head tonight.

No insult intended toward you or anyone.

[CynicalBear]

>>I already demonstrated from the KJV that Mary is the mother if God.<<

Can't be. The Catholic Church says Jesus has two natures and Mary didn't contribute to the divine God nature.

[ealgeone]

The Eucharist, the Marian doctrines, Papal Infallibility, etc. All of these things are Christ-centered.

The Eucharist...Christ centered.

Marian doctrines...Mary centered...hence the name Marian doctrines.....

Papal infallibility....pope centered...hence the name papal.....you get the idea.

[Resettozero]

Now tell us how catholic.org is not a sanctioned Catholic site.

The clock is ticking as we await a confirmation or denial but I don't wear a watch when it's either raining or not.

Someone else keep time this time?

[terycarl]

here are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide; If merely 1% of them 'ask' Mary for help just once each day; that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day. Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds) ...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second! Purty good fer someone NOT 'endowed with special powers'!

OH GOODDIE......does that mean that your list of naughty popes will follow shortly?????

By the way, a modern laptop could handle that load and have time for a few games of Free Cell to boot...

[Arthur McGowan]

Formulating valid syllogisms is not a pastime or a parlor trick. Nor is it an activity that some people have a taste for and other people can rightly ignore, like Bridge or Monopoly.

Composing and proffering, or being unable to avoid or identify, formally invalid syllogisms is an infallible sign of a temporary or permanent inability to reason. The formation of formally valid syllogisms is what reason IS.

An intellect that formulates invalid syllogisms (unless this is being done deliberately for purposes of instruction) is simply not functioning. Something (dishonesty or emotion) is impairing the use of reason and causing a person to function at a less-than-human level.

[JPX2011]

I am not your Protestant you insist on calling me. You remain presumptively rude in your post toward non-RCC Christians.

At least I acknowledge that non-RCC's Christians are so. I noticed you never did respond to my #403 in which I asked if Catholics were Christians? Seeing as how you posted this in #400

It's an excellent religion posing as Christian that has indoctrinated its captured or born-into members in such a manner which satisfies a person's carnal needs for worship without having to be actually born again of the Spirit. I'd likely still be an RC if I had been born into this cult. It really meets all of man's carnal needs to be religious.

Am I a poser?

[vladimir998]

“Hey, that Newman feller also said that Catholics incorporate paganism is their worship of God which is a direct disobedience of God’s command.”

So you’re saying that by exchanging wedding rings, vows, having the white dress, wedding bouquet, etc at your wedding you violated God’s command?

[Resettozero]

OH GOODDIE......does that mean that your list of naughty popes will follow shortly????? By the way, a modern laptop could handle that load and have time for a few games of Free Cell to boot...

I think LC is asleep right now. And although he has not authorized me to post on his behalf (how dare me!), I would like to point out that you may be in need of rest and relaxation yourself, on the basis of this post to Elsie.

[terycarl]

SINS! of your leaders had NOTHING to do with it.

I KNEW IT!!!!! I just read down a few postings from your inane posting having to do with Mary's ability to handle prayers and here it is....your list of naughty Popes....I knew I could count on your inability to come up with some fresh insults toward Catholicism!!!!

[ealgeone]

Nobody ever said that nobody prays “to” Mary. At least, nobody who was repeating Catholic teaching. >

Sorry dude...it's been said on this board that catholics don't pray to Mary.

People pray “to” Mary in exactly the same sense that you can send a letter “to” your mother.

That's about the craziest example I've ever heard. The lengths catholics go to to deny they worship Mary, as prayer to someone is worship, never ceases to amaze me. I've never written my mom letters like these.

"Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother." (Vatican Website:  Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo XIII, 1903-1914)

"This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix (helper), Adjutrix (benefactress), and Mediatrix.

[Resettozero]

Am I a poser?

Dunno. Maybe. Depends on what you mean.

[vladimir998]

“It was a simple way of saying you’re apparently getting in over your head tonight.”

I’ve never been in over my head with Protestant anti-Catholics. Protestant anti-Catholics guarantee that by constantly failing and resorting to misrepresentations, distortions and even lies.

“No insult intended toward you or anyone.”

S-U-R-E. R-I-G-H-T.

[Resettozero]

Formulating valid syllogisms is not a pastime or a parlor trick. Nor is it an activity that some people have a taste for and other people can rightly ignore, like Bridge or Monopoly. Composing and proffering, or being unable to avoid or identify, formally invalid syllogisms is an infallible sign of a temporary or permanent inability to reason. The formation of formally valid syllogisms is what reason IS. An intellect that formulates invalid syllogisms (unless this is being done deliberately for purposes of instruction) is simply not functioning. Something (dishonesty or emotion) is impairing the use of reason and causing a person to function at a less-than-human level.

Well, whatever the problem is, I hope you get it taken care of and soon.

[JPX2011]

The Eucharist...Christ centered.

Good. At least we now have an admission that the Eucharist is centered on Christ and not the Persian sun-god Mithra, Baal, Ra, or whomever. Please be kind enough and share with the rest of the protestant contingent

You're getting it now.

[Resettozero]

S-U-R-E. R-I-G-H-T.

vlad, I apologize for posting that you appear to be getting over your head on this thread tonight. I regret posting it because you felt insulted, which I see as a possibility...however far-fetched.