Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[Elsie]

That statement is talking about Mary’s willingness - her answer “yes” to God - to become the Mother of Jesus.

Please; if nothing else; read the BOOK to see if your QUOTED word - YES - is found in Mary's answer.

[Elsie]

I believe we are wandering off topic, here.

So you DID notice the shiny object!

[Elsie]

I was asked where in Scripture the Catholic Church has interpreted Mary as being born without Original Sin. I'm pointing out where.

No; you are not.

"one who's always been filled with grace." does NOT mean SINLESS from birth.

(Otherwise; it would have been used to describe JESUS.)

[Elsie]

Refers to inhabitants of Sheol.

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Syncro]

The whole of the OT pointed to Christ. It was through the prophecies that people would recognize Him when He came.

Exactly!

Jesus Christ: hidden in the Old Testament, revealed in the New Testament--Chuck Missler

[Elsie]

It says she interceded by willingly agreeing to abide by God’s Will.

---

 

 

Luke 1        Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

 

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a narration of the things that have been accomplished among us;

² According as they have delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word:

³ It seemed good to me also, having diligently attained to all things from the beginning, to write to thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

⁴ That thou mayest know the verity of those words in which thou hast been instructed.

 

 

 

²⁶ And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,

²⁷ To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

²⁸ And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

²⁹ Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

³⁰ And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

³¹ Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

³² He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

³³ And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

³⁴ And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

³⁵ And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

³⁶ And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:

³⁷ Because no word shall be impossible with God.

³⁸ And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

[CynicalBear]

>>Why do I get to do all the ‘research’??<<

Cuz yer specul!!!

[Elsie]

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

“There are not one hundred PROTestants in the WORLD who hate The Biblical Mary, but there are millions who hate the 'MARY' that the Catholic Church has created."
--ELSIE

[CynicalBear]

>>It is not a title as catholics have taken it to be.<<

The Catholic Church has so twisted scripture that it's unrecognisable. It's no wonder they tried so hard to keep scripture out of the hands of the masses.

[nascarnation]

Don’t they read from scripture at every Catholic Mass?

[Elsie]

JW’s are nicer to me than LDS.

JS learned from Catholics how to be nice.

---

 

If you have cable TV, there won’t be much on to watch.

 

 

 

 

If there isn’t much on to watch, you will answer your door whenever someone rings.

 

 

 

 

If you open your door, you will see mormons.

 

 

 

 

If you talk to mormons, they will trick you into “praying about whether something is true”.

 

 

 

 

If you rely on your feelings, you may become a mormon.

 

 

 

 

If you become a mormon, you will have to wear magic underwear!

 

 

 

 

If you wear magic underwear, people will immediately label you as a cultist.

DON’T be a cultist!
Get DirectTV.

[ealgeone]

The term used for Stephen is plērēs charitos, meaning "full of grace at that moment."

The term used for Mary is kecharitomene!, meaning "one who's always been filled with grace."

I was asked where in Scripture the Catholic Church has interpreted Mary as being born without Original Sin. I'm pointing out where.

I checked out the website and it does a poor job on the translation.

The phrase in question in Luke,κεχαριτωμένη, is a perfect participle middle/passive participle. We translate this as we would a perfect verb. The perfect denotes an action completed in the past with results felt in the present. But, the viewpoint is from the writer....not the reader.

The section in question, Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη is correctly translated as, "Greetings, you favored with grace."

To keep this in context, Luke was writing about an event that had already occured. From Luke's viewpoint Mary had already been favored with grace at the time of the announcment by Gabriel. The impact of which was still being felt at the time of his writing. We continue to call Mary blessed as a result.

It does not mean that at her birth Mary had been favored with grace. The text does not support this and the catholic encyclopedia online concurs.

As an example of this let's look at Luke 1:27 and the word betrothed. (ἐμνηστευμένην). It too is a perfect participle middle/passive.

Does it mean from Mary's birth she was always bethrothed to Joseph? Of course not. It simply means from Luke's perspective, remember, he's the writer, Mary was engaged to Joseph.

We also know from Luke that Mary also identified Jesus as her Savior. If she were sinless she would not need a Savior. To compare, we never saw Jesus offering a sacrifice as He was the sacrifice.

We also have Romans 3:23 indicating that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

No where, repeat, no where, do we have the Bible noting an exception for Mary being sinless. No where.

There has only been one sinless person and that is Jesus Christ.

[Elsie]

...and be part machine...

Madam; I am part machine!

In a few years (GOD willing) I'll be be getting my 3^rd pacemaker.

(They really don't replace the battery in the old one.)

[Elsie]

If not, my machine part will still be working long after I’ve assumed approximately 52°’s

[Elsie]

You KNOW I love it!

[Tired of Taxes]

I saw your post about “old coots” having the time to post here.

I am not an old coot.

I really don’t have the time to keep explaining. And now I know that you’re just arguing because you have nothing else to do.

All I can say is that your comments, and many of the comments of your protestant friends here, have only served to reinforce my Catholic faith. So, I guess I should thank you for that. ;-)

In the meantime, I’m through with explaining to you because it’s quite obvious that YOU DON’T WANT TO understand Catholic doctrine.

In this whole discussion, one truth has been revealed to me: Your entire faith is based on the “protest” of its mother faith. Without the Catholic Church, there wouldn’t be PROTESTants. Hence, you spend your time arguing and protesting.

But I don’t have to do that. So, that’s it. Goodbye.

[Elsie]

It's interesting as Jesus profusely quoted Scripture to validate (for lack of a better word) Himself.

HMMMmmm...

[Elsie]

They who downplay Scripture are already deceived.

They who think Scripture is insufficient are setting themselves up for 3 MORE Portugese children in the future.

[Elsie]

So explain it clearly....one more time......for this moron.

I've probably forgetten what I posted by now.

But I will go back and look it up.

Hold on a minute...

[CynicalBear]

>>Don’t they read from scripture at every Catholic Mass?<<

LOL So they say. Problem is they evidently miss parts and we know they change the words and original meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words to suit them.