Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
Documentation and source please.
“Just like in the BIBLE.”
Luke 1:43.
Or like in Matthew 25:18 which uses the same Greek word. Or maybe even Luke 16:5
“Yes I read it.”
Then why did you say something erroneous?
“...and within that group there is one majority stance (44 if memory serves) that says the rock is Peter’s confession and the catholic church rejects as it doesn’t fit the narrative.”
False.
1) The Catholic Church has never rejected that interpretation. The Catholic Church says that is NOT THE ONLY interpretation, and it should not be embraced to the exclusion of all other interpretations.
2) 44? Have you ever actually researched this issue? I just paged through chapter 6 of Jesus, Peter and the Keys and counted 58 separate fathers and councils all from the time of the ECFs. I doubt that’s even a complete list too.
“Why would we need to *deal with* it?”
1) I did not say anything about need so why are you implying I did?
2) Do you believe no one is in heaven? Do you believe Mary is not in heaven but “asleep”?
3) Elsie claims Mary is not in heaven, but “asleep”. Elsie claims this understanding is Biblical. Is it? I know there are Protestants who would say, “No!”. So much for sola scriptura.
Are you mistaking politics for religion ?
What I find unbecoming in the religion forum are when the works of the flesh that contend against the fruit of the spirit, when Messiah's clear prayer and direction for unity in Him is ignored on the very thread of which it is the topic. 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
TRUE!Mary was graced, given grace.
TRUE!Therefore she’s a sinner.
DOES NOT FOLLOW!
You seem to have ignored the evidence of Jesus, and of Adam and Eve before the fall:
You seem to me making "grace" synonymous with mere "forgiveness." This lacks precision. Scripture says (Romans 6:23): "The grace of God is life everlasting."
Luke 2:52 And Jesus was increasing in wisdom and in years, and in grace before God and men.
A real jaw-dropper. I am ashamed of you. NOBODY claims that Mary is the Trinity;s mother.
Shouldn't you be more careful to to avoid falsehoods about other people's religious beliefs?
Those who are filled with the Holy Spirit will never be in unity with the beliefs and followers of the Catholic Church.
What an idiotic, malicious thing to say.
If you have to defend your religion by constantly lying about another religion, what does that say about your religion? Or your character?
“Or like in Matthew 25:18 which uses the same Greek word. Or maybe even Luke 16:5”
But - as many Protestants admit - Luke 1:43 is a reference to Jesus’ divinity:
“Elisabeth confessed faith already in the person of Jesus, for she noted that Mary bore the God-man (mother of my Lord).” Footnote in The Reformation Heritage KJV Study Bible.
Catholics say Jesus is God therefore Mary is the mother of God. God is one therefore Mary is the mother of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as they are one. It’s simply a continuation of Catholic reasoning.
But your argument is resting on this translation.
Every catholic website I've seen uses this translation.
But, let's play along for a second and say this translation is ok.
It is still in the perfect tense and those rules of interpretation still apply.
Luke no where indicates Mary was filled with grace from her birth nor does this phrase Luke uses mean to be free from sin. Recall that Luke investigated everything he wrote about. He notes this in Luke 1:1-4.
No where in his account does he note, nor does any other author of the NT, note Mary was born sinless.
To be full of grace in the Luke account doesn't mean without sin. This is a blessing coming from God.
What we have is the angel Gabriel arriving at Mary and Joseph's house. He greets Mary and then tells her she has been "filled with grace"/"favored with grace".
In either case, that is the moment the clock starts ticking on Mary being favored/filled with grace from Luke's perspective. Not her birth.
Consider the following.
If Mary had been sinless from birth Paul writes a lie in Romans 3:23.
If Mary had been sinless from birth Paul writes a lie in Romans 5:12...therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.
If Mary had been sinless John writes in lie in 1 John 1:8.
If Mary had been sinless the writer of Hebrews writes a lie in Hebrews 10:12...but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.
However Catholicism tells us (SUPREMI APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIIION DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY)tells us that Mary occupies the highest summit in Heaven....not God...not Jesus....Mary.
If Mary had been sinless Paul writes a lie in 2 Corinthians 5:21...He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
False.
That is just one group....not all inclusive.
“That is just one group....not all inclusive.”
And 58 is one group and not necessarily all inclusive. So?
Those who claim they are filled with the Holy Spirit should exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. Walk in the light. They should honestly proclaim their affiliation. If one has an alternative for the historic holy catholic apostolic one should forthrightly name those denominations that comprise it. To remain silent or obfuscate is essentially admitting one has no alternative, and is a blind guide. If one is trying to erase any memory of one's own Catholic heritage that would signal a different problem.
"Mother of God" is a corollary of the fact that Jesus is one Person, not two. A mother gives birth to a person.
Think of this: if Chuck Cherry married Margie Maraschino, and they have a child, Odilio Maraschino-Cherry, Margie can't say "I'm not the mother of the Cherry part, just the Maraschino part."
You can't give birth to parts. You give birth to a person.
I fully agree. It was WAY before her birth.
This Scripture brilliantly applies to Mary, and of course not only to Mary, but to us:
Eph 1:3-6, 11-12
Brothers and sisters:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has blessed us in Christ
with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,
as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world,
to be holy and without blemish before him.
In love he destined us for adoption to himself
through Jesus Christ,
in accord with the favor of his will,
for the praise of the glory of his grace
that he granted us in the beloved.
In him we were also chosen,
destined in accord with the purpose of the One
who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will,
so that we might exist for the praise of his glory,
we who first hoped in Christ.
As I said, this isn' only Mary,m but it's certainly includes her, since she was the first to hope in Christ. She was the first to accept Jesus as her Savior!
I have not read this work. However I am reading a review of it and it notes the writers, who are pro-catholic, have selected those quotes that support catholicism. I am not surprised. NOTE: I am not accusing you of doing this, just the writers of the work.
I wish for once, catholics would put all the cards on the table and quit with the manipulation of words.
I seem to recall another individual who liked to pick and chose what he said. It hasn't worked out too well for him either.
Not much, with the possible interpretation of the word "father" My dad was ALWAYS my father and I still refer to him as such. He was not, however, my heavenly father because ONLY GOD has a right to that title. My grandfather has an even higher Earthly title GRAND, and as for my GREAT GRAND FATHER...well we could go on and on. None, however is my heavenly Father and we ALL know that....
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.