Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
“Sure, Bob. You are right again!”
Well, you can always “sleep” on it. Maybe you’ll have a better view afterward.
“Apparently you do...”
Most definitely. Even most Protestants know that “sleep” does not stop souls from going to heaven.
“Wake your dog up!”
Maybe you should just do a better job.
“I ain’t working.”
Oh, it is.
“Perhaps Mary is ‘asleep’.”
There’s no sleep in heaven.
Unlike some I do like to document my work and sources.
Fingers going to fast sometimes.
BTW, I'm using the third edition of Mounce's book.
“Yes, you ARE right on every point!”
Sure am. :)
“I bow to your superior knowledge and astuteness.”
In a sense you do with every post.
Again, Protestant anti-Catholics lie. As John Henry Newman, a former Protestant who knew Protestantism very well wrote:
“If you would have some direct downright proof that Catholicism is what Protestants make it to be, something which will come up to the mark, you must lie; else you will not get beyond feeble suspicions, which may be right, but may be wrong. Hence Protestants are obliged to cut their ninth commandment out of their Decalogue. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” must go, must disappear; their position requires the sacrifice. The substance, the force, the edge of their Tradition is slander. As soon as ever they disabuse their minds of what is false, and grasp only what is true,—I do not say they at once become Catholics; I do not say they lose their dislike to our religion, or their misgivings about its working;—but I say this, either they become tolerant towards us, and cease to hate us personally,—or, at least, supposing they cannot shake off old associations, and are prejudiced and hostile as before, still they find they have not the means of communicating their own feelings to others. To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation. There are indeed able men who can make a striking case out of anything or nothing, as great painters give a meaning and a unity to the commonest bush, and pond, and paling and stile: genius can do without facts, as well as create them; but few possess the gift. Taking things as they are, and judging of them by the long run, one may securely say, that the anti-Catholic Tradition could not be kept alive, would die of exhaustion, without a continual supply of fable.” (Lecture 4. True Testimony Insufficient for the Protestant View)
#1,047
That's right. Remains would blow the whole assumption or Mary to smithereens.
The it should be *mother of Jesus*.
Just like in the BIBLE.
Imagine that....
Did you even read the article I posted a link to?
Yes I read it.
So the bottom line is, you have the ECFs who are all over the place on the passage in Matthew and within that group there is one majority stance (44 if memory serves) that says the rock is Peter's confession and the catholic church rejects as it doesn't fit the narrative.
Still trying to figure out how the catholic church squares that away.
Why would we need to *deal with* it?
In other words, ditto!
This is getting silly. The whole discussion has deteriorates into "Does too!" "Does not!" with episodes of "Is too!" "Is not!" yelled at increasingly higher pitches, between two English-speaking Christians full of inflamed concordance information, maybe a page and a half apiece.
If we were serious about getting past English-speaking concordance and lexicon writers, we might try asking people whose native language is actually Greek, don't you think? It would be interesting to ask people who have been reading and analyzing Greek literature for a millennium or two, wouldn't it?
Are you following this?
The upshot here, is that for the last couple of millennia, the Greeks have been unanimous in saying that "Kecharitomene" is fully congruent in meaning with "Panagia,", which means ---
Oh, dear, I'm almost afraid to tell you.
My point is, this is what the Greek-speakers say.
If I have to choose between actual Greek-as-a-first-language scholarship, and some 19th century English-speaking lexicon compiler, I judge it fully reasonable to go with the Greek-speakers.
Bu I'm open-minded. Go ahead and try to convince me that some 19th century U.S. Methodist knew Greek grammar better than St. John of Damascus...
The word Kecharitomene does NOT include any way to mean "full of grace". Your post #126 from 7/29/2013 includes a paragraph that is very deceptive. Here it is.
>>The unique feature of Kecharitomene is that it is in the Greek perfect tense, denoting that the state of grace began in past time, by a completed action (hence "fully" accomplished), whose results continue in the present. A suitable translation to denote all these features might be "Fully-Graced One."<<
One can agree with that paragraph right up until the last sentence. When I unloaded a 400 bushel load of corn into an empty 1000 bushel capacity bin I can say that the unloading occurred past tense. I can also say the unloading is fully accomplished. What I cannot presume from that is that the bin "might be" full of corn.
Neither can it be a "suitable translation" to denote Mary as "full of grace". The Catholic Church took that false attribute from an erroneous translation by Jerome in the Latin Vulgate. The Koine Greek does NOT include that definition.
Psalm 91 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust.”
3 For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler
and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his pinions,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.
5 You will not fear the terror of the night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness,
nor the destruction that wastes at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only look with your eyes
and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 Because you have made the Lord your dwelling place—
the Most High, who is my refuge—
10 no evil shall be allowed to befall you,
no plague come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways.
12 On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread on the lion and the adder;
the young lion and the serpent you will trample underfoot.
14 “Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him;
I will protect him, because he knows my name.
15 When he calls to me, I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will rescue him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him
and show him my salvation.”
BTW, no part of my argument rests on the Douay-Rheims or the Latin Vulgate tranlsations. So if you want to get into an entended tussle about that, please direct your tussle towards some Vulgate scholar. That wouldn’t be me.
Thank you or this splendid Scripture.
Jesus GIVES the grace.
Mary was graced, given grace.
Therefore she’s a sinner.
Heh, no wonder the Catholic church tells its constituents that they are incapable of correctly interpreting Scripture.
Yeah, they claim she's the Trinity's mother.
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