Posted on 12/05/2014 7:18:21 PM PST by Salvation
Wikipedia?
The source that people can edit to say what they want it to say?
Wow, that’s really low standards.......
Can't say for sure. Apostasy crept into the Church early though. By second or third century there were NEW traditions put in place. So around there. There are dubious letters that the RCC say support early establishment but the only agreed upon date is later. "In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the venerable day of the sun, referring to the sun-worship that Aurelian had established as an official cult." This was the solidification of Roman dominance in Christian politics. There may have been jump starts before then but this was a major coup for the RCC as a force to be reckoned with.
Non answer noted, and the fact that I also said Encyclopedia Britannica, and etc... the fact that you ignored that is also noted.
Note I asked when it came into existence. You went off on a tangent about apostasy that was not part of the question. You also failed to cite a single source secular or otherwise.
If any of the other non-Catholics would care to attempt answer I would be most anxious to read your replies. Please note I am looking for a specific date and you need to cite a SECULAR source.
The "tangent" of apostasy is when other influences came into play when something other than what Jesus and the Apostles practiced/preached. In other words, when Sunday worship became mainstream and the smaller "backward" churches got pushed out of the limelight and political arena.
You would say, wouldn’t you, that the Catholic Church was the original Church, established byJesus, would you not? Yet there are so many practices and beliefs adopted by the Catholic Church over the centuries, that it’s much different from the original Church. Catholic defenders say the Church merely “developed,” but since so many of these beliefs and practices contradict Scripture, evangelicals believe that changes aren’t greater revelation of what was already there, but a moving away from the original Church’s foundation.
That would seem to have a lot to do with the formal church leadership largely accommodating the world, becoming as I wrote in another post here like a corporation and earthly kingdom, where the priesthood offered a comfortable, secure life (in a time where there was much hard toil and uncertainty otherwise). That’s not to say there weren’t any sincere believers among Catholic clergy, but that overall the priesthood took to creating and preserving the comfortable, powerful world of the highest leaders. Only God Himself knows what happened, is happening, and will happen in the hidden spiritual lives of every professing Christian and body of believers. What people can see, though, are the fruits that are produced by individual and bodies of believers.
And to speak of the Church as established by Jesus Christ during His Incarnation also isn’t quite the truth, either. The Church has believers who lived before His time on earth, and the Bible reveals that Jesus was the Lamb slain *before the foundation of the world* (that is, before God even created the world and Adam and Eve sinned). So there were Christians before Christ, and in an eternal sense the Church didn’t begin during the Incarnation.
And, too, while we might see the Apostles as the first Christians in a way, Christians weren’t even called “Christians” at first, as God’s Word tells us that believers in Jesus as the Messiah were first given that name later on at Antioch. Was it part of God’s eternal plan from the beginning, then, that they would at the proper time and place be given that name? It seems so.
So there is no use in trying to settle such disputes by using secular - worldly - sources as ultimate authority, because their viewpoint is unbelieving, and they only see the worldly, not the eternal, and only look at man’s actions, and don’t acknowledge God, much less that He is in control and acting to bring about His plans throughout history. EB and Wikipedia aren’t going to acknowledge Jesus as the Lamb slain before this world existed, or see Abraham, Moses, David and Elijah as Christians, but merely as Jews, because of their worldly perspective. As the Bible says, the natural, or unbelieving, man doesn’t understand spiritual things and have the mind of Christ. So, then, we shouldn’t have a worldly perspective on the Church, but seek to know and understand God’s. That’s the question.
I am looking for a specific date and citations for a secular source.
I answered in post #142. “Can’t say for sure.” 2nd or 3rd century is the best guess.
Unless the non Catholics present the truth to themselves they will not believe it. So many of them have had it pounded into their heads “The Catholic Church came after the Bible.” or other such nonsense. They make wild claims and then when you ask for sources you get nothing.
CITE A SOURCE. I don’t want your best guess, I want concrete proof!
Post # 142 “ “Can’t say for sure.”” Maybe third times the charm. I don’t know.
I’d be more concerned on how and when it’s going out of existence than when it began.
I clicked on your link, Salvation.
So who are members, and who are not members of the Church founded by Jesus at the time of His death and Resurrection?
All Roman Catholics, or some Roman Catholics?
And what about professing Christians who aren’t Roman Catholic?
As the link states, there was NO OTHER RELIGION until Luther decided to do his own thing.
Only Catholicism. Can you figure that out?
The link can provide the opinion of the people on it all it wants. That doesn’t mean it’s a fact.
So Catholicism is a religion now? Well, at least it’s no longer claiming to be Christian.
There were many other churches before Catholicism came into existence and they are listed at various places in the NT.
Other places besides Rome were: Corinth, Ephesus, Colossae, Philippi, Galatia, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.
And the RCC ruthlessly eradicated any competition so that any groups of believers would have had to meet in secret. So there would be no record of their existence.
In those seven fine CATHOLIC CHURCHES in Asia?
I guess them early Catholics were not very good at catechizing their troops!
We KNOW that Peter was in error for a LONG time...
When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Galatians 2:11
Doesn’t Rome claim that what it teaches NOW is the same as what it taught at the start??
Why?
Would you not rather...
...look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
James 1:27
???
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