Posted on 11/28/2014 9:44:39 PM PST by Steelfish
And if they were all in 100% agreement you might have a case. But they’re not. They’re all over the board on this, Peter being the first pope and all the other things discussed on this board. The only consistent thing about the ECFs is their inconsistency.
In Luke 2:7....And she gave birth to her first born son....
Luke 2: 22-23
22 And when the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord ;)
If first born means others have to follow why would they present him to god before they could possibly know if there were going to be others?
Even so I still can not see that it plainly tells us either way.
Your post 82. Again the Greek and biblical context clears this up. Jesus was the first born son of Mary. He did have other brothers. Paul notes this in Galatians 1:19 when he says he met James....the Lord’s brother. I’m not sure how it could be any clearer.
Dear Sister in Christ
I am glad that you have been on a personal journey with our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for 25 years. When Jesus was asked about the men his disciples caught driving out demons in His name, He did not rebuke the men but instead told His disciples, who is not against us is with us.
It seems to me that you have traded the hundreds of years of carefully scrutinized doctrines of the One, True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church for your own personal concoction which has no doubt been informed by other men.
It is my sincere prayer that you and I will come to know, understand and reject the sins that punish our Dear Lord and Savoir and together rejoice with Him on the eighth day.
I am wondering, where the tribe of Judah got the “J” from if it hadn’t been invented yet?
From RSV:
21 And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
22 And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord")
24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."
25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And inspired by the Spirit he came into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said,
29 "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word;
30 for mine eyes have seen thy salvation
31 which thou hast prepared in the presence of all peoples,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel."
33 And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him;
34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against
35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed."
36 And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity,
37 and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.
38 And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks to God, and spoke of him to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.
39 And when they had performed everything according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city, Nazareth.
40 And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom; and the favor of God was upon him.
Huh? Hebrew has no letter "J" to this day nor does any dialect of it, and neither does Greek. You do realize that they don't even use the same alphabet, don't you?
“That’s because in the protestant brain the early Church fathers were not Catholic.”
That’s an interesting observation.
I think it has some truth in it, and is probably historically valid.
You make a good point.
“In the protestant mind the Catholic Church is given credit for nothing.”
This is just another empty straw man attack.
BRAVA LadyL! Your work on this thread is outstanding!
But there is a correction in this one point: Jews are the House of Judah, not only the tribe of Judah. The House of Judah consisted of three tribes: Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, albeit that in the Assyrian Diaspora, half of Benjamin and Levi were also captured and went away with the rest.
This is why Paul rightly calls himself a Jew when he is of the tribe of Benjamin.
Wow, you missed the entire point, whether there was or was not a letter "J" was not even in dispute besides I didn't ask you, I asked Lady so you can take it up with her.
when he says he met James....the Lord’s brother. I’m not sure how it could be any clearer.
More than one meaning for brothers or brethren.
If it proves it to you I have no argument but I do not believe it is enough to build doctrine on.
You have forgotten the testimonies of two very important witnesses, Simeon and Anna at the Presentation in the Temple!
In Genesis 48:17 when Jacob/Israel blesses and adopts Joseph's two half breed sons as his and says they will be called Israel, Jacob says to Ephraim When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on Ephraim’s head, it displeased him; and he grasped his father’s hand to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his [s]descendants shall become a [t]multitude of nations.”
In the Hebrew language “multitude of nations” is also melo goyim or the fullness of the Gentiles...so I guess that my tribe might be Ephraim although that could be subject to change. There are twelve gates going into the New Jerusalem. Each gate has a name of one of the tribes over it...THERE IS NO CHURCH GATE! Which gate will you walk in.
Your post 90....context is everything. Ditch the catholic propaganda and read the Word.
Your post 90....context is everything.
No. Context is everything in understanding the Word. If not you’re making stuff up as catholicism does regarding this, and other issues.
No. Context is everything in understanding the Word. If not you’re making stuff up as catholicism does regarding this, and other issues.
15 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
What an odd expression. I'm imagining myself in Germany.
From your comments I deduce you are a Gentile and associated with one of the Anglo-Israelism sects/cults which are clearly derived from Protestantism.
Have they taught you the three tithes and persuaded you to donate your assets to the tax deductible organization. ?
You can escape the cult when you are willing. The church which you disdain is the body of Messiah. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Apparently you know the Word. I pray you find the Truth.
Apparently you know the Word. I pray you find the Truth.
That i am sure you know as well as I do so I don`t think I need to preach on it.
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