The Nature of the Mass and the need for Sacrifice

walkinginthedesert ^ | Arturo

[Elsie]

Well...

[metmom]

A vast multitude of Protestants are swinging the OPPOSITE way on the pendulum: all LOVE! and no WRATH!!!

That's true and there's error in that as well.

We need a balanced viewpoint of God and Satan would love nothing more than to make it unbalanced.

[NKP_Vet]

“As for Protestants....well there was the Reformation and grateful for that happening”

Protestantism, a false religion, bastardizing the Word of God, teaching error and a pathway to hell for over 500 years.

[Salvation]

The Nature of the Mass and the need for Sacrifice

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"Let Us Live With Him! Let Us Learn >From Him!" (Pope's homily at the Mass of the Lord's Supper)
THE PRIEST IN THE COMMUNION RITES - Liturgy Prepares for Reception of the Eucharist
All Should Offer Their Bodies and Blood at Mass (Father Cantalamessa) [Catholic Caucus]
Can't the Holy Father Just Make the Liturgical Reform Happen?
Pope wants crucifix at the centre of ALL westward-facing altars during Mass
Benedict XVI's "Novel" Traditions
Telling Time By the Catholic Church
Good Hymns, Bad Hymns
Order of the Mass (New Translation Catechesis Part I)(Catholic Caucus)
Open Ears, Open Heart (Preparing to Receive the Liturgy of the Word each Sunday)
Effort to stop new liturgical translations at USCCB meeting fails
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Vatican Denies Liturgical Reform Reports
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
Explains The Supreme Importance Of The Liturgy

Altar Card for the Modern Roman Liturgy
Slating the Chairs (USCCB prepares for its November plenary session)
Mass appeal: "It's like Jolt Cola for the Soul" [Catholic Caucus]
All Four Pending Liturgical Items Pass; Work On The Translation Of The New Roman Missal Continues
WHERE THE PRIEST SHOULD BEGIN MASS
GUIDELINES FOR THE PUBLICATION OF LITURGICAL BOOKS [New Missal] (Long)
AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT, Et cum spiritu tuo, (New Missal liturgical translations)
The New Missal - Historic Moment in Liturgical Renewal [Bishop Serratelli]
Know Him in the Breaking of Bread - A Guide to the Mass
Vatican liturgical official makes new plea for 'reform of the reform'
Liturgical Vestments (and prayers the priest says while vesting for Mass)
Vestments… Tools of the Liturgical Trade! [Ecumenical]
The (Catholic) Mass (as explained by a youth for Evangelical friends) [Ecumenical]
What the Catholic Mass means to converts
The "Old" Liturgical Movement: 1947 "Benedictine" Arrangement [Catholic Caucus]
Good News for the [Catholic] Liturgy
'An Ordinance Forever' - The Biblical Origins of the Mass [Ecumenical]
The Sacrifice of the Mass: Liturgical Vestments
What Do You See at (Catholic) Mass?
Purification of Sacred Vessels in U.S. (and more on the Purification of our Lord)

Tyranny of Words (Catholic liturgy - NO vs. TLM)
Mass should be enlightening and elevating, not a cookie cutter ritual
What You {Catholics} Need to Know: Mass (Sacred Liturgy) [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
"The Catholic Mass ... Revealed"
The Battle Over the Mass [Catholic Caucus]
Scriptural Basis of the Mass as Sacrifice (Where is that in the Bible?)
Giving to God in Mass [Liturgy of the Eucharist]
Liturgy, Learning and the Language of the Catholic Faith
Cardinal Arinze's Mass Etiquette 101
Prostration and Vestments on Good Friday And More on the Precious Bloodbr> Catholic Liturgy - Funeral Masses for a Suicide And More on Confession for RCIA Candidates
The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - A Primer for Clueless Catholics (Part 1)
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, the Roman Catholic Mass and the Anglican Eucharist...
Catholic Liturgy - Dramatic Readings at Mass (And More on Processions, and Extra Hosts)
Catholic Liturgy - Mass Intentions
Catholic Liturgy - Pre-recorded Music at Mass And More on Communion Services
Vatican: Matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist (April 23, 2004)
POPE ISSUES APOSTOLIC LETTER ON THE SACRED LITURGY
Liturgy: Are Glass Chalices OK for Mass?
EUCHARIST: HOLY MEAL

[caww]

History doesn’t agree.

[NKP_Vet]

“History doesn’t agree”.

Clarification.

Protestantism doesn’t agree. Which has spread errors of the gospel for over 500 years. The Bible is a Catholic Document. Written by Catholics, canonized by the Catholic Church. If you agree with the 27 books of the New Testament you have accepted the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Those 27 books were determined to be the inspired Word of God by the Catholic Church. End of story.

[caww]

The Bible is NOT Catholic Documentation ....if that were true the church would not have Priests nor a Pope today...and it certainly wasn't written by Catholics! It's Gods word alone and to all mankind.

Nobody needs the catholic church to determine what is or not God's word and in fact have error-ed when they have tried to do so. Just because the catholic leadership determines something certainly doesn't make it so. Only catholics believe the leadership of the catholic church.

Thus the Reformation because they had moved the church so far from the disciples teachings and the word of God says. Had it not Incorporated all the rituals and pomp and desire to be as regal as Rome and it's Government involvement...(which it still does) the Reformation would not have been necessary...but greed, murder, corruption, false teachings prevailed and does so too day.

Some will hold on for dear life to what they believe is the catholic churches authority, which it does not represent to the body of Christ, and why God intervened to bring true Christians back to the path He intended.

Further, they continue to change their positions and to teach so.... using the scriptures to justify their man made ordinances, dogma and traditions which is an affront to the true teachings of Christianity.

[Elsie]

Protestantism, a false religion, bastardizing the Word of God, teaching error and a pathway to hell for over 500 years.

Thanks, Protestants; for being WILLING to face DEATH from a certain religious group; for making the WORD available to a hungry world!

Would ANYONE have a bible in their home today if it had NOT been for Protestants?

Where is the RCC equivalent to Gideons, International?

[Elsie]

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VERSUS...

[FourtySeven]

I think God must be necessarily outside of time by his very nature. I think this is what is meant by the “eternal now”.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

A vast multitude of Protestants are swinging the OPPOSITE way on the pendulum: all LOVE! and no WRATH!!!

---

Truth! Both sides of the coin stray from His Word!

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

The Bible is NOT Catholic Documentation ....if that were true the church would not have Priests nor a Pope today...and it certainly wasn’t written by Catholics! It’s Gods word alone and to all mankind.

---

Catholics sound like Old Soviet Russians. “Ve inwented it vurst!”

[daniel1212]

Is it true, or is it not true, that Calvary, like every other moment in time, is eternally present to God the Father who lives in the Eternal Now?

Indeed, as is the creation of the word and the final judgment, but God deals with us in time and space, and thus Christ came in the fulness of time, and once offered Himself for our sins, and sat down.

You simply cannot make Him to be offering the same sacrifice again and again any more than creating the universe again again. Thus your argumentation is absurd.

[caww]

....”Catholics sound like Old Soviet Russians. “Ve inwented it vurst!”.....

Well they can’t do otherwise under the leadership they have and until they read the scriptures for themselves, and that with a heart and mind open to what God wants to tell them as He wants to, they will continue to put their trust in what Rome and their Priests say.

I’m not saying that you can’t find Catholics who read their Bibles. I know they exist. But sadly they are
far too few in number....and fewer still who want to know what God says. It’s to easy to let the Magisterium tell them what they have to believe and then they look for that one scripture that confirms to them it’s so.

[caww]

....”Catholics sound like Old Soviet Russians. “Ve inwented it vurst!”.....

Well they can’t do otherwise under the leadership they have and until they read the scriptures for themselves, and that with a heart and mind open to what God wants to tell them as He wants to, they will continue to put their trust in what Rome and their Priests say.

I’m not saying that you can’t find Catholics who read their Bibles. I know they exist. But sadly they are
far too few in number....and fewer still who want to know what God says. It’s to easy to let the Magisterium tell them what they have to believe and then they look for that one scripture that confirms to them it’s so.

[caww]

.....”You simply cannot make Him to be an offering the same sacrifice again and again any more than creating the universe again again”.....

It’s been said by some catholics writers that “the Sacraments perpetuate Christ’s Redemptive Action”.....and it’s through these grace is channeled to the individual. ut this flies in the face of what’s written.....

.....”And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:..... But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool..... For by ONE offering he hath “perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”.....Hebrews 10:11-14

and here again.....”God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” ...John 4:23-24 .... Which is not in Sacrements nor earthly type things...but in Spirit.

All the catholic Church’s ministries seem to be directed toward the Eucharist which for them that IS the real and true body and blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearances of bread and wine. But then that would make it a real ‘ sacrifice’ as well rather than a commemoration of the Death of Jesus Christ.....which then makes Jesus a “victim” again and again in their belief.

Yet Jesus proclaims that He alone has the power to offer Himself not man......written here.....”Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again....(He arose).... No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down ‘myself’. ‘I have power’ to lay it down, and ‘I have power’ to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” ... John 10:17-18....Therefore He’s NOT a victim since He layed His life down “Himself”.

So given this ‘The Mass’ cannot possibly be as they are taught to believe....Furthermore.... Peter 2:5 reads... “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, ‘an holy priesthood’, to offer up ‘spiritual’ sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”........So since we are a holy Priesthood as believers there is no reason for the catholic Priesthood to perform this ritual....or for that matter even have the Priesthood.

I am simply attempting to get my head around why catholics continue to believe this in light of the scriptures which show clearly it’s not possible......

[caww]

Also...I understand that the Eucharist is only possible through the priesthood so it would seem that the catholic Church can exist only with priests.......if there’s no Priesthood then theirs no catholic church for it does seem that Priests are the “foundation” of everything else among them. Do I have that right?....and if so then how can they claim salvation through Christ is real for them when all seems to focus on the very church Priesthood and the rituals they perform????

[Claud]

I’m no theologian, but unless I miss my guess you seem to be suggesting that God experiences aeveternity—simply time extended, whereby the past is truly past and God undergoes some kind of change in state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aevum

God is, rather, outside time and the Creator of time. He is completely changeless, so it is impossible for Him to experience time as a change from one state to another.

Let me come at this from another way as well. Christ is a divine (not human) person. As a divine person, He shares the Eternity of God, so His sacrifice is, indeed, an eternal sacrifice. This is not just about how God the Father perceives Calvary, it’s how God the Son *offers* Himself of Calvary. In both cases, the implications are eternal.

However, all this aside, I don’t think any of this represents the true reason so many of you find this doctrine so viscerally repulsive. I will address that in the next post.

[Claud]

Is time *really* the sticking point on this issue for so many of you? I am guessing here, so correct me if I’m wrong, but what may be upsetting you is that you view Calvary fundamentally so very differently than we do.

I remember talking to a Presbyterian minister once and she had objection to a phrase I used “Love is the cross, and the cross is love”.

Some folks see Calvary as a outlet for God’s wrath—in the sense that God, in justice, needed to punish the sins of men, so His Son simply volunteered for the job and bore the brunt of His fury, thereby satisfying justice once and for all. This theology sees Calvary solely as a sort of vent for God’s anger—hence it seems ridiculous to extend it into eternity. All of you seem extremely—I would even say irrationally—anxious to have this event be over and done with, never to exist again. You almost seem, in my eyes, to want to run away from it as fast as you can.

We see Calvary rather differently.

We agree absolutely in the “satisfaction for justice” angle. But Calvary has very little to do with “wrath” in our practical theology, and everything to do with love. Catholics who talk about being at the foot of Calvary at Mass, who gaze at the crucifix, are smitten with the love Jesus had for us, are humbled by this laying down of His Divinity on our accord. We are like children at the foot of the cross. We wish we could stand there to kiss Our Lord’s sacred feet. We wish we offer Him consolations in that dark hour, help carry his cross and anoint His Sacred Body for burial. The cross, despite its pain, its horror, is not something we run away from, it’s something we run toward as a child would run to console his mother in distress.

It would *break my heart* if I thought Jesus did all this for me and the accident of time and space wouldn’t let me be there on Golgotha to offer my Lord whatever simple consolations I could. But I can do that. And I do do that. Every Sunday.

[Elsie]

God is, rather, outside time and the Creator of time.

Well; I've heard this said; but I've seen no evidence of it. However, I have seen...

2 Peter 3:8 (NIV)
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years,
and a thousand years are like a day.