Posted on 11/05/2014 7:40:17 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
This is my response to the Plural Marriage in Kirkland and Nauvoo essay posted last week to LDS.org.
A couple of years ago I was talking to my 16-17 year old Sunday School class about polygamy. They raised it – not me. Our conversation was about the early practice of Mormon polygamy and how it came about. The girls in the class turned up their noses and looked aghast while one boy responded to Joseph Smith’s revelation on polygamy with a snort, and a, ‘Yeah right! That’s convenient!’
To say that polygamy has been a singular nuisance to the church is an understatement. Over the years various discourses have been raised to counter the repugnance that many, inside and outside of the church feel for the practice.
The Wastach Front is filled with the descendants of multiple wife practitioners and it ‘fulfilled a glorious purpose’.
It’s been a great source of strength to the church today.
It gave homes and shelter for single women.
Our great church leaders came from these homes.
Spirit babies are awaiting mortal tabernacles,
Blah, blah, blah…
The thing is I DON’T CARE. I find it a repellent, dehumanizing practice that reduced females to brood mares and turned Utah into a pious stud farm. Furthermore it has historically quashed some of my enthusiasm for a happy afterlife, particularly in contexts when I’ve been told that my husband will be required to pick up further wives as a matter of eternal course.
There hasn’t been once in my 39 years of being a Mormon that I have ever had the slightest modicum of spiritual feeling for the practice – other than abhorrence. So there is absolutely nothing the church can say, whether through essays, declarations or apologetics that will sway me on the matter. I see it as little other than a form of spiritual abuse to maintain a discourse of high transcendent religious motivation around the character of Joseph Smith when he was, at least in this respect, a womanizing, seducing, Lothario who coopted God in order validate his particular feminine tastes. So LDS.org doesn’t get a pass from me for their unpunctual candor. Good on them for finally broaching a tricky topic and publically admitting Joseph’s theological inventiveness that shaped several generations of Mormon discourse, but it doesn’t go far enough. Perhaps its time to drop the ‘righteous polygamy’ story entirely; along with everything else that has adhered to it over the years.
So here’s my take on the historical matter. I like to think of Emma Smith as the other half of Joseph’s prophetic mission. When Emma said ‘no’ to his calls for her polyandrous compliance he should have stopped. Emma’s guidance and criticism on the practice should have brought Joseph’s enthusiasm for multiple wifery to a screaming halt. If Joseph had listened to his wife on the matter the story of Mormonism would have played out quite differently, and ultimately with less controversy and more ease, and less fear, paranoia, secrecy and pain.
And for me, that very reluctance on the part of the masculine church to admit the voice of women – in all matters – has been its bane.
I don’t have a testimony of flaming swords; angels commanding the practice; novel revelations, (Section 132). Nor do I believe in the divinity of these strange dalliances and couplings. This is not to say that I have dismissed Joseph entirely. He was a cad, but he was a mad and bold visionary who was as audacious as he was quixotic. I would have loved Joseph the Prophet. I would have sat at his feet and soaked in his emergent and brilliant theology; I would have been loyal to him; I would have followed him and believed in his vision of the heavens and my eternal potential.
But if Joseph had come a sniffing around my daughter I would have kicked him in the nuts and sent him home to his wife.
BTW, the example of Sarah is a perfect example of why polygamy is bad. Hagar’s son was the Father of the Arabs & started the all the violence we see today in the Middle East.
As long as it is a voluntary choice made by all concerned parties, it is not for me to judge or second guess whatever consenting adults do or do not do in private. What is the point of passing such useless and unenforceable judgment against others if not to reinforce one’s own prejudices and insecurities.
And no, it makes no absolutely difference to me if it is polyandry or polygamy, because the principle is absolutely the same in both cases.
Perhaps you are confusing Arabs with Muslims. Arabs are a sub ethnicity, not a religion. There are Christian Arabs. According to Christ, all are forgiven if they accept Him in their hearts.
And you condemn the parents for the alleged sins of the offspring? How Christian is that?
condemn the parents -> condemn the ancestors
We are not in the Old Testament days, thank goodness. Women don’t have to tolerate the horrible conditions that they lived in back then. Would you be so accepting of polyandry? Women get NOTHING out of polygamy but loneliness. Even the Muslim view of polygamy is better than the “Christian” view. At least the Muslim women have their own houses & aren’t forced to associate with the other wives.
Women does not have the monopoly on loneliness.
But if polygamy is good or bad is not my argument but as far as the tribes of Israel go it was the wives who started it and not the men, at least that is what I read in
Genesis 16:1 through 4
There are people who are trying to put polygamy in the same category as sodomy, and I believe they are either cracked in the head or their intentions are evil.
If God would have thought that polygamy was an abomination he would have destroyed Abraham just as he did Sodom.
I don`t think I could handle polygamy but what I am against is people adding their own words to the scripture, we can not trust people who do that even if it happens to agree with what we believe is our ideal.
At least the Muslim women have their own houses & aren’t forced to associate with the other wives.>>>>>>>
I have an idea that it was only the more well off people in Israel who had multiple wives, and most likely the same way in the Muslim world except these people are very rich and can afford many houses.
Seems like they are the ones who would be lonely.
BTW, the example of Sarah is a perfect example of why polygamy is bad. Hagar’s son was the Father of the Arabs & started the all the violence we see today in the Middle East.
Good point.
No, it would be a more lonely, miserable life if a woman had to live with the other wives. I would not want to live in the same house with other women that I hated. And, if I had share my husband, I would HATE the other women. There is just no good reason for polygamy. Even in the Old Testament days polygamy caused a lot of trouble.
I know the Arabs are a sub-ethnicity. I am just saying that Abraham caused a lot of problems when he fathered a child with Hagar. You can’t deny that. Sarah rebelled against God when she encouraged Abraham to sleep with Hagar because she wasn’t trusting God to keep his promise about giving her a child.
BTW, there are Orthodox Christians on my Mother’s side of the family, so I know very well that there are many Arabs who are Christian.
I’m not sure the creation of problems as you describe can be attributed so much to a single individual as, if one subscribes to the traditional Judeo-Christian religious belief system, to G*d himself. I am no expert but I do recall that the tribulations of Job, just to mention one example, are conventionally attributed to G*d, and specifically as a test of Job’s faith, not punishment for Job’s behavior. In addition I hope no one blames me for what my grandchildren do and I hope no one blames you for what your grandchildren do. I certainly do not blame Abraham for what his descendants do. So I think to read into the OT that the modern Middle East unrest is due to Abraham is a less than conventional if not less than Christian stretch. I read the NT as in essence a story of redemption through forgiveness. Christ saved all humans (even descendants of Abraham) through his sacrifice and forgiveness. We are challenged to use Christ as an example to forgive each other (even descendants of Abraham). To me, forgiving means letting go such talk of blame.
About Sarah rebelling against G*d— I do not see that specifically in the OT passages (presuming you are discussing Genesis 16). If that is not written in the OT, then it is outside of the bible and merely an interpretation, something which is not definitive of the OT itself. Is this your interpretation or something you came across in studies? In Genesis 16:6, G*d specifically seems to have compassion for Hagar and the wording used (Sarai mistreats Hagar) seems to blame Sarai not for presenting Hagar to Abram, but for her jealosy. That is, the OT is not condemning polygamy (when it easily could have in the same or nearby passages). The however OT is condemning jealosy between wives of the same husband.
[So, CrimsonTidegirl, are you jealous of someone? Is it someone associated with your husband or boyfriend? If so, do you think your feelings of jealosy are justified by the bible, or condemned by it?]
Blaming Abraham or any other one ancestor for the current Middle East conflict seems like the type of thinking that Christ would condemn. Christ’s example is not about blame— it is about forgiveness, and if we believe in Christ we are asked by him to forgive others— not to blame others. Would you deny that?
I read in Genesis 20:17-18 the following:
17 Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelek, his wife and his female slaves so they could have children again, 18 for the Lord had kept all the women in Abimelek’s household from conceiving because of Abraham’s wife Sarah.
This specifically seems to bless Abimelek despite that Abimelek seems to be a polygamist.
Thank you. At least you’re not a hypocrite about it.
There is just no good reason for polygamy. Even in the Old Testament days polygamy caused a lot of trouble
True, but that is their problem. Any woman who would allow her husband to marry someone else has serious self-esteem issues. There are no advantages for the women in polygamy; it’s all about the husbands’ ego & lust.
I agree that Jesus saved everyone through his sacrifice, no argument with that. I am not blaming Abrahams’ descendants,
I blame polygamy itself. The practice of polygamy didn’t turn out well for Solomon, either. We will never agree on polygamy but I respect your opinion.
No, there is no one that i am jealous of. But, if my husband ever thought about bringing another woman into our marriage, there would be big trouble:)
Any woman who would allow her husband to marry someone else has serious self-esteem issues.
Sari did not allow Abraham to marry Hagar, she ask him to.
Same case with both Leah and Rachel.
I am sure you can find a thousand cases in the threads about Mormons to make the opposite point but my only interest in it is what the Bible says about polygamy, not what some one else may say
There are no advantages for the women in polygamy;>>>>>>>
You are right, especially today in the world we live in but they lived in a much different world.
it’s all about the husbands’ ego & lust.>>>>>>>
Only the men?
Genesis 18
9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
Seems like Sarah thought of it as pleasure and she was ninety years old.
God blessed Sarah with a Child who would become the grandfather of the tribes of Israel when Ishmael was about 14 years old, does that sound like God considered what Sarah and Abraham did to be an abomination?
Unlike the scribes of today I think not.
No advantage?
Both Sarah and Hagar were the mother of many nations and it is likely Hagar and maybe even Sarah would never have been heard of except for the circumstances as it happened.
I believe every one has a right to their own view as long as it is within the bounds of Gods word.
We may not disagree as much as you think,
I do not believe I could be a polygamist but my views differ with those who say that it is an abomination.
They claim they believe in the word of God but if they do why not stick to it instead of trying to add to it a little here and a little there?
If you have a problem with polygamy on a personal level and you have some personal beliefs that it is bad, fine. If you think one’s own personal beliefs entitle someone to dictate their morality to others, and that one’s personal interpretation of the bible can be used as justification for doing so, then that is where we part company.
One of the problems in legalizing polygamy is that would please the Muslims & their desire for Sharia Law. I could tolerate polygamy if polyandry was allowed also. I would worry, though, that legalization would promote more abuse of women in the FLDS.
One of the benefits about basing your thinking, philosophy and advocacy on fundamental principles is that you need not be concerned about who favors or does not favor a given policy. The policy can be evaluated on its own merits without need to be concerned with who favors it or does not favor it. I would be fairly confident that most Muslims support the notion of brushing one’s teeth before going to bed in the evening. Does this imply that brushing one’s teeth before going to bed in the evening is bad, because Muslims favor it? To me, it is not relevant to the evaluation of a policy whether or not one group or another group favors it. What is relevant is the inherent merits or lack of merit of the policy itself. Besides a person or group can change its mind— and if it does, that leaves you with a problem since you need to reevaluate your assessment of the policy based on the change in thinking of others. That is a form of moral relativism, and as I hope most of us on FR agree, moral relativism is a thing to be avoided.
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