All Souls, Purgatory and the Bible

Da Mihi Animas ^ | November 2 2014

[NYer]

On All Souls Day, the Catholic Church offers prayers and liturgies for the repose of the dead. As Catholics, we are called by the Church to focus our spiritual energies to assist these poor souls, who, though saved, are still in need of purification. Our prayers and sacrifices assist them in this process of purification as a means used by God to communicate purifying grace to them. After all, He is the vine, we are the branches so that He produces his fruits of grace through us.

The practice of praying for the dead actually predates Christianity. In 2 Maccabees 12: 41-45, Judas offers prayers and sacrifices for his fallen comrades to make “atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.” Some argue that the books of the Maccabees are not inspired scripture. Leaving that argument aside for now, we can at least look at them as historical books detailing accepted pious practices of God’s people some 300 years before Christ.

If that is the only place in the Bible where we find any reference to purgatory, many Protestant Christians argue, then that is a weak support for such a practice. Fortunately, we know as Catholics that all of our doctrines are indeed found in the Word of God, as is the doctrine of Purgatory. Hence what follows is a biblical understanding of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

The book of Genesis recounts for us the far reaching repercussions of Adam and Eve’s disobedience in the Garden. This sin, we find, brought about four consequences which I will summarize here (Gen 3: 16-24):

First, their sin brings about disharmony between persons. God tells Eve that both her relationship to her husband and children will now be characterized by pain and mistrust (Gen 3:16). Further, God has to make garments for man and woman because now, as the text implies, they feel shame (Gen 3:21).

Second, their sin brings about disharmony between man and creation. God tells Adam that he will produce the fruit of the earth with toil and difficulty (Gen 3: 17). Even the ground itself is cursed because of their sin (Gen 3: 17).

Third, their sin brings about disharmony between man and himself. He no longer has spiritual control over his body; thus, his body returns to the dust of the ground (Gen 3: 19). Adam and Eve are no longer able to receive everlasting life (Gen 3: 22).

Lastly and most importantly, sin brings disharmony between God and man. This consequence results in mistrust and fear of God (Gen 3: 10), and, worse, spiritual death. Without God, neither physical nor spiritual life can be sustained (Gen 3: 19, 24).

The first three disharmonies mentioned above are called ‘Temporal punishments due to sin.’ Temporal refers to things pertaining to this world. The last disharmony, the disharmony with God, is called eternal punishment, because it refers to things pertaining to the eternal world with God.

All four of these disharmonies are healed by Christ. The only healing we experience fully in this life, however, is from eternal punishment–or disharmony with God. That’s why Christ is the One Mediator between God and man.

It should be clear that we don’t experience a full healing from the temporal disharmonies/punishments as Christians, because we still struggle. We experience suffering, illness, catastrophes, and even death. Yet, Christ heals these problems, too, it’s just that we don’t experience the full healing in the temporal sphere until He returns.

Until then, we are called to struggle for His Kingdom. As St. Paul puts it, “But we have this treasure (the healing grace of salvation) in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying around in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.” (2 Cor 7-10)

To overcome these temporal disharmonies, we are called to cooperate with Christ’s power in grace so as to bring about the healing with Him in these areas. This is why we are called to pray, fast, and alms give so as to forgive our neighbor’s sins and be forgiven, and to receive the reward promised by our heavenly Father that we will once again regain temporal peace/harmony on earth and in heaven (Mt 6:5-23).

What happens if we die and are reconciled to God (the eternal punishment for sin), but have not entirely cooperated with grace to overcome the temporal punishments for sin? St. Paul gives us the answer in 1 Cor 3: 12-16. He says that after death, our works will be tested “as though by fire, and the fire will test what kind of work we have done,” and we will suffer loss, though we will still be saved (1 Cor 3:13-15).

This is a very clear passage regarding the purification (which we call purgatory) that takes place after death. This fire purifies us from our temporal disharmonies mentioned above, if we die without having them entirely purified in this life.

[boatbums]

You want the truth, that is found in the Catholic Church.

Whatever "truth" the Roman Catholic church has remaining within it comes from Divinely-inspired Scripture and was believed all the way back to the original first Christians. The extraneous dogmas and doctrines added over the centuries that have perverted the gospel of the grace of God and which impose heavy burdens on souls never meant to be by God are NOT the truth from God. That is why those who diligently seek to know the truth WILL be rewarded by God and HE will lead them to the church home that best fits their needs. A church doesn't save - Jesus does.

[CynicalBear]

The thief on the cross?? Such carnal desperation.

I find it incredibly sad to watch the deceit of the Catholic Church and the number of people that have fallen for it.

[stonehouse01]

“Could you show where the assumption of Mary is taught by the apostles in scripture? ...”

Revelation 11:19 - 12:21. St. John actually witnessed Mary in Heaven when He was in the spirit writing the apocalypse.

“evidently Catholics disagree with the Holy Spirit...”

These are the statements that prove that non Catholics are unqualified to judge Catholics becase:

Acts 17:11 tells us to search the scriptures daily which Catholics do during daily mass at minimum - it does NOT say search the scriptures only. Catholic doctrine is not at variance with Acts 17:11.

Oral traditions are perfectly acceptable and the bible says this:

Acts: 2:42 And they were perservering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of the bread (liturgy of the eucharist), and the prayers (liturgy of the word and/or the consecration prayers). The doctrine, prayers, and breaking bread referred to IS tradition and it is also written down.

Throughout history the Word of God was always transmitted orally and Jesus nor the early Christians changed the Jewish practice. The bible does NOT say that oral tradition stopped after parts of the bible were written down.

The assumption is a sacred tradition handed on directly from the early Christians who witnessed it.

Protestant doctrines are handed on orally; sola scriptura is not found in the bible and neither is the trinity; also the altar call - there are protestant traditions that started much later and are now being handed down.

[RoosterRedux]

Catholics are so well-meaning...but they are mislead by their Church.

Never trust humans or their organizations. Humans are sinners...they are incapable of building anything HOLY.

And that is what the Catholic Church is. A sinner built organization.

Catholics trust what they are told...they refuse to think freely. Catechism over Scripture.

Obfuscation instead of TRUTH.

We pray for them...and not to the goddess.

[RoosterRedux]

The woman in Revelations 12 is Israel...not Mary.

[verga]

You are wrong. BTW why won't you answer Father of fives simple question? Scripture gives a very specific answer and you seem to be refusing to asset it.

Is it because other members of the prot posse refuse to answer it?

Now I am going to give you a really big hint: 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Okay now don't play games or try to hedge the answer. How long is a day to God according to SCRIPTURE?

[RoosterRedux]

Typical of those fighting a losing logical battle.

Change the subject.

BTW, to whom do you pray, a dead human or the Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of All Graces, Mother of Salvation, Queen of Heaven?

Why won't you answer this question?

You know the answer. Why the shifty behavior.

You worship the pagan goddess...hello Astarte, Semiramis, Diana.

You are worshiping a demon.

Do you care?

[af_vet_1981]

And not one of the offerings designated by God were to be offered for dead people.

Odd; the Jews appear not to have heeded your rule in 2 Maccabees 12 and I find no scripture upbraiding them. In fact, we see in Isaiah 53 as well as 2 Corinthians 5 that Messiah became the sin offering for the living and the dead. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

If you don't believe, or it offends your conscience, that you can pray to God through the LORD Jesus Christ to intercede for someone like Onesiphorous, then do not 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Only do not leave an offering of flowers or something else at a funeral if you are unwilling to pray for the departed soul; that would be incongruent.

So you don't believe that all of scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

I believe All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I think you mischaracterized the speaker in your post.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Odd; the Jews appear not to have heeded your rule in 2 Maccabees 12 and I find no scripture upbraiding them.” <<

.
2Maccabees is not scripture, it is an historical book.
.

[RoosterRedux]

I fell asleep and bumped my head on my keyboard reading your post.

You probably made a lot of sense...but could you reduce you message to something a slight bit shorter.

[af_vet_1981]

The woman in Revelations 12 is Israel...not Mary.

Mary is Israel, the very Virgin of Israel; you cannot have Messiah without her; Israel cannot have Messiah without her, and I, for one, am grateful, for her faith and courage. 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

[2nd amendment mama]

Protestant doctrines are handed on orally; sola scriptura is not found in the bible and neither is the trinity

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." So are you saying that the Trinity is un-Catholic? Really.....really???

[verga]

You are wrong, and BTW you didn't answer Fatheroffives question either.

Let me give you another big hint: Psalm 90:4 A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

Now try really hard and stay on topic.

[CynicalBear]

>>St. John actually witnessed Mary in Heaven when He was in the spirit writing the apocalypse.<<

First of all the woman in Revelation is the nation of Israel. In Joseph's dream the sun, moon, and stars bowed down to Him. Besides, if you think it is Mary then you have to admit she was not without sin. The woman in Revelation "cried out in pain" which is a result of sin.

>>Catholic doctrine is not at variance with Acts 17:11.<<

Of course it is. Paul said they searched the scriptures to see if even what he taught was true. He didn't say they searched tradition. Paul also said if someone taught something they didn't teach that person was to be considered accursed.

>>it does NOT say search the scriptures only.<<

If you want to add to scripture to make up your belief have at it. You might want to research what scripture says about adding to it or taking from it however.

>>The bible does NOT say that oral tradition stopped after parts of the bible were written down.<<

I DOES tell us this.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Now, stop dancing around and show proof that what they called "oral tradition" is the same as what the Catholic Church teaches as "oral tradition". And please don't give us things that are written in scripture. That's not "oral tradition".

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Mary is Israel, the very Virgin of Israel; you cannot have Messiah without her” <<

.
We had a messiah before she was born.

Mary is the mother of a human body; the spirit that occupied that body is/was eternal.

The woman is Israel. Mary is not but a fragment of Israel.
.

[CynicalBear]

>>In fact, we see in Isaiah 53 as well as 2 Corinthians 5 that Messiah became the sin offering for the living and the dead.<<

You still didn't show where God designated sacrifices that the Jews were to give for the dead. Jesus sacrifice was NOT one of the sacrifices the Jews were commanded by God to give.

>>I think you mischaracterized the speaker in your post.<<

No I didn't. I claimed it was the Holy Spirit who was speaking through John. Your statement was "No, that is what the scripture says." Scripture IS the Holy Spirit speaking through the writers.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “In God’s perspective, how long is a day?” <<

A day is from sunset to sunset.

He numbers his days, 1 through 7, and then he begins again at 1. So the 8th day is always a new beginning.

A day has a morning, and an evening.
.

[af_vet_1981]

Jesus sacrifice was NOT one of the sacrifices the Jews were commanded by God to give.

I assume you will accept that Jesus is a Jew.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

No I didn't. I claimed it was the Holy Spirit who was speaking through John. Your statement was "No, that is what the scripture says." Scripture IS the Holy Spirit speaking through the writers.

You wrote "The Holy Spirit says this." and then listed the verse for 1 John 1:7. I listed two verses where the Holy Spirit did actually speak. You did not write the Holy Spirit was speaking through John, you wrote the Holy Spirit said those words.

[verga]

A day is from sunset to sunset.

You are wrong I suggest re-reading (or perhaps reading for the first time) Genesis 1. You may want to pay particular attention to "day 4."

[boatbums]

BTW why won't you answer Father of fives simple question? Scripture gives a very specific answer and you seem to be refusing to asset it. Is it because other members of the prot posse refuse to answer it? Now I am going to give you a really big hint: 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Okay now don't play games or try to hedge the answer. How long is a day to God according to SCRIPTURE?

Once again, the only ones playing games here are those who ignore answers to their question and then pretend they weren't answered so THEY can avoid answering additional questions posed to them. Here was my answer to FofF:

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To: FatherofFive

From Scripture, how long is a day?

It depends on the context, doesn't it? In Genesis, God created the world in six "days" and specifically said "evening and morning" were what counted as a day. To humans, in THIS earthly life, a day is approx. 24 hours. But with God - because He is eternal - time is not binding on Him which means our thousand years could be as one day with Him. Not everything is a pat yes or no answer, is it?

Now, can you explain why two Roman Catholics believe two different things about the "good" thief's eternity?

262 posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2014 1:40:18 AM by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)

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I don't need any "hints" since I already gave the correct answer. Do y'all need help with reading comprehension?