Posted on 10/28/2014 5:23:04 AM PDT by Colofornian
The so-called 'premortal' world Mormons claim they had as alien spirits on a distant planet, supposedly located near the star they call "Kolob":
Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th "prophet" of the Mormon Church:
"Before the foundations of this earth were laid, WE were ALL in the presence of the Father as spiritual children. Lucifer was one of us..." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., Religious Truths Defined: A comparison of Religious Faiths with the Restored Gospel, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, p. 67, 1959/1962)
Mormon seminary/institute instructor John K. Challis contributed a chapter to a Salt Lake City published book in 1993 (Aspen Books; title: Riches of Eternity). Challis' chapter title was: "The Reality of Satan." Allow me to quote directly from Challis (pp. 37-38 of book), who himself highlighted the word "after" in the following excerpt:
"In two of the four published recitals of the First Vision (the 1835 account and the 1838 account, which is now JS-H:1:5-20), the attack of a powerful 'unseen' being is recorded... His glorious theophany came AFTER his being seized and overcome for a time by Satan. The attack was a powerful one. Joseph said in 1835 that my toung [sic] seemed to be swolen [sic] in my mouth, so that I could not utter, I heard a noise behind me like some person walking towards me, I strove again to pray, but could not, the noise of walking seemed to draw nearer, I suprung up on my feet,...and looked around, but saw no person or thing."
The citation of what Smith reported was footnoted as coming from Dean C. Jessee, compiler and editor, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith (Deseret Book Co, 1984, p. 75. (Note: Deseret Book Company is owned by the Mormon Church)
Challis added: "In his 1838 recital of the events, Joseph spoke of a 'thick darkness' gathering around him and said that it seemed for a time he was 'doomed to sudden destruction' (JS-H 1:15)." (p. 138)
Lds "apostle" Mark E. Petersen, speaking at one of the bi-annual Conferences the Salt Lake City Mormon church hosts for its entire church, April, 1952:
"And then read of his [Joseph Smith's] visits with...Moroni, a personage who came back from the dead and ministered to Joseph Smith, gave him direction, and helped him in the production of the Book of Mormon." (Lds "apostle" Mark E. Petersen, Conference Reports, April 1952, pp. 106-107).
Note: As a BYU history professor at the time, Quinn earlier authored the book: Early Mormonism and the Magic World View
Per Pratt's 1853 sermon excerpts:
Excerpt A:
Who communicated with our great Prophet, and revealed through him as a medium, the ancient history of a hemisphere, and the records of the ancient dead? Moroni, who had lived upon the earth 1400 years before....Who revealed to him the plan of redemption, and of exaltation for the dead who had died without the Gospel and the keys and preparations necessary for holy and perpetual converse with Jesus Christ, and with the spirits of just men made perfect?...Those from the dead!...Shall we, then, deny the principle, the philosophy, the fact of communication between worlds? No! verily no! Editors, statesmen, philosophers, priests, and lawyers, as well as the common people, began to advocate the principle of converse with the dead, by visions, DIVINATION, clairvoyance, knocking, and writing mediums, etc., etc. This spiritual philosophy of converse with the dead, once established by the labors, toils, sufferings, and martyrdom of its modern founders, and now embraced by a large portion of the learned world, show a triumph more rapid and complete — a victory more extensive, than has ever been achieved in the same length of time in our world.
Source: GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES: The Occult Worldview of Mormonism
[Please note: The above isn't very surprising given that the very Mormon "scriptures" say that The primary focus of the Mormon church is on serving the dead! (Doctrine & Covenants 128:15; 138:27)]
Excerpt B: Pratt claimed that the very purpose of Mormon temples included:
Ye are assembled...and have laid these Corner Stones, for the express purpose that the living might hear from the dead, and that we may prepare a holy sanctuary, where "the people may seek unto their God, for the living to hear from the dead"...
Excerpt C: Pratt claimed that the spiritism culture of the 1840s and 1850s was introduced by Joseph Smith
(the) "spiritual philosophy of the present age" (spiritism had been introduced in the U.S. about five years prior) "was introduced to the modern world by Joseph Smith." And, he claimed, the real reason that Smith was killed was because Smith acted as "a medium of communication with the invisible world,whereby the living could hear from the dead."
[Yes, you heard it first from Mitt Romney's G-G grandfather -- 161 years ago during the emphasis on occultism within Mormon history...which also coincides with its April start date as a "church." (see 15 occultic and controversial facts you may want to know about Lds temples [Vanity] for documentation on this]
Excerpt D: Pratt emphasized how Smith served as a 'medium':
"ONE OF THE LEADING OR FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS OF 'MORMON' PHILOSOPHY, viz. - 'That the living may hear from the dead' commenced thru Smith acting as a "medium." + "..How do the Saints expect the necessary information by which to complete the ministrations for the salvation and exaltation of their friends who have died? By one holding the keys of the oracles of God [allegedly a Mormon prophet], as a medium through which the living can hear from the dead."
For more on this sermon, see: Journal of Discourses/Vol 2/Spiritual Communication [The OTHER World Series: Lds discourse w/dead]
It would be “easy” to conclude that modern-day Mormonism has shed such “medium” vocabulary. That would be a false assumption.
The Salt Lake City-based Mormon church routinely produces massive curricula documents for their high school seminary and college Institute coursework. The course manual published in 1978-1979 for their Religion 211-212 requirements included this note on p.418 of The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles: "'Speak by inspiration, not of yourself, but simply as a MEDIUM through whom the mind and will of the Lord is revealed..." (Bruce McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 3, p. 317) .
For documentation, see:
* 19th century occultic Mormon phenomena: Paranormal intermingling, demonic possession [Vanity]
* They See Dead People? (The OTHER World Series - LDS & Temple Hauntings)
* Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]
See:
* 19th century occultic Mormon phenomena: Paranormal intermingling, demonic possession [Vanity]
In fact, after the above was posted last year, I came across a few other examples of evil spirits "hanging out" with future Lds "prophets" (like Lorenzo Snow, a "prophet" of the 1890s who served as an Lds missionary in England in the 1840s:
"As they had with other church leaders, evil spirits sought to confound Lorenzo [Snow] in his efforts. One night in his London apartment, he was awakened by loud noises. 'It seemed as though every piece of furniture in the room was put in motion, back and forth against each other in such terrible fury that sleep and rest were utter impossibilities.' Accompanying the commotion was an oppressive feeling that filled the whole room. The disturbance came again the next night, and several more nights after that..." (The Presidents of the Church: Biographical Essays, by Heidi S. Swinton, 1986 Deseret Book Co, 1986, p. 154...Deseret Book Company is owned by the Mormon Church).
Another prominent Lds general authority of the 1950s and 1960s – Hugh B. Brown -- serving as one of the top three-ranked Mormon leaders from 1961-1970 after being designated an "apostle" in the 1950s, described how an attack by demonic entities was intertwined with his call to be a church leader:
"We were in Canada. I was...an attorney for an oil company and manager of it...I drove to the city of Edmonton...I went into the bedroom alone and there, through the night, I had the most terrible battle with the powers of the adversary. I wanted to destroy myself. Not in the sense of suicide; but something within me was impelling me to wish that I could cease to be...It was terrible. The blackness was so thick you could feel it. Sister Brown came in later in the night, toward morning in fact, wanting to know what was the matter. And when she closed the door, she said, 'What's in this room?' And I said, 'Nothing but the power of the devil is in this room...That night at 10:00 o'clock, October 1953 – the telephone rang. Sister Brown answered. She called me and said, 'Salt Lake's calling,' and I wondered who could be calling me from that far away. I took the phone and said, 'Hello.' This is David O. McKay calling. The Lord wants you to give the balance of your life to Him and His Church..." (The Life & Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, Course Manual Religion 211-212, 2nd edition 1978-1979, p. 133).
Often, yes.
Often, no.
Kind of all depends on the circumstances.
Examples of "often, no" (Unless you plan on lecturing the apostles John & Paul when you get to heaven):
* 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. (2 John 9 to 11)
* 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians five: three to five)
Example of "often, yes":
* 9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. 10 So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church. (3 John 9 to 10)
The key in the above is to discerningly pinpoint who is actually causing the division? Who are the real provocateurs?
Diotrephes spread false rumors, refused to welcome other believers, and put other welcomers out the church.
The guy in the Corinthian church engaging in sexual behavior became the divider once he flaunted his sexual sin before the whole church. (Paul wasn't the divider for wanting to have him ex-communicated)
And in the case of 2 John, it was the heretics who caused the division, even tho they didn't want to be split away from the Christian church.
They insisted they be accepted as is, heresy and all.
Sorry, your carte-blanche attempt to treat all circumstances as the same doesn't wash. Besides, are you so obtuse that you don't even recognize 'tis Mormonism that from the get-go labeled 100% of the Christian church as "apostates," 100% creedally abominable, and as having professions of faith as 100% corrupt? (Note all of the "all" words in the Mormon "scriptures" of the First Vision...Joseph Smith History - 1 - in the Pearl of Great Price)
Bashing and dividing Christians is satan's work.
Does that include bashing Christians as possible "cross-dressers"?
Does that include bashing Christians who you think are engaging in "satan's work" by your labeling of them as "bashers" and "dividers?"
Often, yes.
I provided a reference — 2 Corinthians, 12:7
I consider any messenger sent from God to be an angel, and Moroni, once a man on earth, to be one.
You seem to make no distinction between the True Christ and a False one.
I deduced something that was news to me, and went to the source for confirmation.
And this is why I post Mormon quotes.
O...
K...
How do you KNOW the Sender?
Sorry, but MEN have NEVER been shown to change into an angel.
We know that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. I am sure that they were sent by God.
Are you proudly representing Christ by bashing me by consistently referencing me as a basher? (If your primary operative ethic on fr is not to bash...then perhaps you may want to consider being a bit more tolerant of those you don’t see eye to eye...iow...set an example)
Wow, this is very interesting!
“I consider any messenger sent from God to be an angel, and Moroni, once a man on earth, to be one.”
Normandy, can you provide any facts or evidence that backs up your assertion that moroni was an angel? So far, we just have an opinion.
“We know that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. I am sure that they were sent by God.”
We know God chose them, based entirely on what HE revealed in HIS Holy Bible.
We know they appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration based entirely on what HE revealed in HIS Holy Bible.
Moroni? Doesn’t appear in the Bible.
Hi Ampu,
I believe that Moroni was sent from God to Joseph Smith to reveal the Book of Mormon, just as were Elijah and Moses were sent to Jesus.
How do you know if a messenger comes from GOD?
Yeah; we get this.
But...
...how do you know if a messenger is sent by GOD?
Ether 15:31
And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.
“I believe that Moroni was sent from God to Joseph Smith to reveal the Book of Mormon, just as were Elijah and Moses were sent to Jesus.”
Hi Normandy. I know you “believe it.” That is an opinion.
What evidence or facts do you have to support your opinion?
Except you can't point to any "angel" specifically id'd as a "man" in the Bible, can you?
Except you can't point to any "angel" specifically id'd as a "man" in the Book of Mormon in the Bible, can you? (iow...Moroni or any other Book of Mormon character isn't id'd as an "angel" there)
And if that's important doctrinally, why is that nowhere to be found in those sources?
Normandy...we cannot alwas simply take what an "angel" says at face value; we need to be "noble" like the Bereans were:
11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)
We have to examine the claims of any "latterday" "gospel" vs. previous revelations re: the Biblical Gospel. If you don't, you fail to be "noble" (like the Bereans)
Hence, Paul says that if a new "angel" on the block begins preaching amiss...a "new" "gospel"...that "angel" is to be cursed!!!!
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! (Galatians one:six to nine)
Even Mormonism acknowledges that certain "revelations" are "of the devil." What's interesting is this quote...found in the Mormon church-owned Deseret News...concedes that SOME of the directives Mormons have been told to do by Smith "...are of the devil":
...Whitmer wrote that Hyrum Smith, Joseph's brother, suggested selling the copyright in Canada to raise money and that Hyrum \"persuaded Joseph to inquire of the Lord about it.\"According to Whitmer, Joseph used his seer stone \"and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon.\"Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Knight, Hiram Page and Josiah Stowell were selected for the task to go to Canada.The brethren, however, failed to sell the copyright.Whitmer wrote that he remembered when Page and Cowdery returned: \"Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking.\"Whitmer said Joseph \"enquired of the Lord about it\" and received a revelation that said, \"Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.\"\
Source: Newly found revelation of Joseph Smith
IoW...Smith isn't trustworthy...Moroni wasn't...
Deuteronomy 18 indicates that if a prophet speaks as a prophet even only once falsely, look out!
19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
How many times does it take to lie to be deemed a liar? (once)
How many times does it take to murder to be deemed a murderer? (once)
How many times does it take to proclaim a false prophecy to be deemed a false prophet? (once)
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