Protecting God’s Word From “Bible Christians”

Crisis Magazine ^ | October 3, 2014 | RICHARD BECKER

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Are you saying none of the APOSTLES realized they were secretly cursing him by calling him Iesous” <<

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I am saying that none of the apostles ever called him anything but Yeshua, and Messiach.

The apostles spoke Hebrew, and Lived Torah. They cannot be held responsible for what happened after they were dead.

Iesous, Isho, Yeasous, Yshu, and all derivatives are the curse “Yimach Shimo Uezichro.” Yshu is the rabbinic acronym.

What is is, as Willie Clinton would say.

Discomfort over the truth is the first step in repentance and victory over the lies.
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[editor-surveyor]

CB’s personal attack reflected only on him.
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[editor-surveyor]

>> “I understand. I left you speechless.” <<

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Please, do it again!

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[Springfield Reformer]

Koine is imaginary.

No Greek ever used it. It is the result of using the Septuagint as a “Rosetta stone” to effect the translation of Hebrew into Greek. It exists only in texts translated from Hebrew to Greek by using the phrases taken from the Septuagint. Koine’s grammar is Hebrew

There is so much wrong here. First, the information on Koine (Common) Greek being "imaginary" is an old misconception that has long been discarded:

For a long time Koine Greek confused many scholars. It was significantly different from Classical Greek. Some hypothesized that it was a combination of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Others attempted to explain it as a "Holy Ghost language," meaning that God created a special language just for the Bible. But studies of Greek papyri found in Egypt over the past one hundred years have shown that this language was the language of the everyday people used in the writings of wills, private letters, receipts, shopping lists, etc.

See Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, Chapter 1.

Second, if the Septuagint is a Rosetta Stone for anyone, it's us moderns, because it was constructed by scholars who knew both Hebrew and Greek. It was NOT a Rosetta Stone to them, as in a key to translating Hebrew into Greek. Again, they already knew both, and that's why it has value to us.  For example, when we see 223 instances of Iesous as transliterations for Yehoshua and Yeshua, we get that Iesous is a completely acceptable way to translate Jesus' name from Hebrew to Greek.

Third, where you got the idea that Koine's sole existence is in extractions from the Septuagint I have no idea.  I would actually love to see your source on that, because it is as wrong as it can be. As Mounce points out in the quote above, Koine/Common Greek was .. wait for it .. common!  It shows up everywhere, not in the ivory towers of classical Greek scholarship, but in the ordinary business of everyday life in the Mediterranean world and beyond.  Granted, that wasn't always known.  But now it is, so there's no excuse for getting that wrong anymore.

Fourth, to say that "Koine's grammar is Hebrew" is completely wrong.  I have studied both languages in earnest, to the point of tears at times.  I would have loved it if they had the same grammar.  I can handle Greek much better than I can handle Hebrew grammar.  They are worlds apart.  Greek feels a lot more familiar than Hebrew.  It is well equipped for handling long chains of complex, abstract thought, whereas Hebrew is more concrete. The inflection patterns and the word order patterns are significantly different as well.  Koine, on it's own, does NOT reflect Hebrew grammar per se.  

That is not to say a Hebrew writer writing in Greek wouldn't tip his hand by using Hebrew idioms. Certainly that would happen. But idioms are not grammar, and even idioms must fit into the grammatical mold of the target language, in this case the Common (Koine) Greek, just to be understood by the target language's readers. So again the idea that Koine was fabricated out of the Septuagint Hebrew with a Hebrew grammar is completely wrong, idiomatic usage notwithstanding. Such beliefs are necessarily the product of imagination and not fact.

Peace,

SR

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

Lucifer appears in Genesis... I would say the appearance of an angel isn’t all that.

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Are you suggesting Mary was vistited by Lucifer and not Gabriel?

Incidently Jesus told us how to discern whether an Angel is one of God’s. Test the Spirit.

[af_vet_1981]

Plus, if you read the Kiddishes, Jewish prayer for the dead, it is more about resting in peace until the last judgment - not at all some concept of a Purgatory where suffering goes on to satisfy temporal punishments for sin committed in life.

1. Kaddish is the exaltation and praise of the Holy One of Israel with a plea for the Messianic Kingdom. This is an offering to God to aid the soul of the departed and mitigate any temporary punishment in the twelve month period for such punishment after death.
2. The Jewish concept that God hears Kaddish prayers and they help the soul of the departed ascend to the realm of Paradise is ancient and comprehensive across all branches of Jews.
3. Catholics have obviously incorporated this ancient Jewish belief in the reading of certain scriptures.

[CynicalBear]

Thank you for that.

[sasportas]

Good info, Reformer. Should be good enough for ES, however, he seems to be hung up on the “Nicolaitans.” Anybody ever called you that before? Get ready.

I think you are probably going to have to explain the true meaning of “Nicolaitan” next...for him, and for me. I’d like to hear your explanation of it.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “ For example, when we see 223 instances of Iesous as transliterations for Yehoshua and Yeshua, we get that Iesous is a completely acceptable way to translate Jesus’ name from Hebrew to Greek.” <<

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For those (the majority, I’m sure) that wish to project the curse, of course that is true.

Ever watch network TV? They live by the same kind of logical rupture as your statement represents.

The “If you wish it to be true it must be true” approach has led the majority into the ditch since the beginning.

[Springfield Reformer]

Nothing substantive I can respond to there.

Peace,

SR

[editor-surveyor]

>> “I think you are probably going to have to explain the true meaning of “Nicolaitan” next...for him” <<

Nico = rule over, conquer.

Laitan = The people.

Of course nicolaitans hate that fact and cook up all kinds of fantastic alternatives.

[sasportas]

One take on Nicolaitans I’ve heard: a lot of Greek names have the “Nico” part in it, like Nicholas. Nicolaitans therefore has to do with the Greeks = especially those wicked early Christians who used the Greek “Ieusus” = evil perverters of the Hebrew Yeshua.

[editor-surveyor]

Save that “Nicolas” nonsense, the word is a very plain Greek word. Nicolas means conqueror.

Games show your intent well, do they not!

[sasportas]

See my post 872. I forgot to include you in its address. Its about a bogus interpretation of “Nicolaitan” I’ve heard.

[dsc]

“So much for veracity.”

So much for not bearing false witness.

I withdrew from my discussion with the moderator. My intent was clear to all whose hearts are not drenched in Satanic malice.

[Elsie]

So when the angel Gabriel says ‘do not be afraid’ that was just redundant?

Maybe.

What was the "other" phrase?

[Elsie]

She is not dead.

Yes; she is.

There is NO data showing otherwise.

You are NOT allowed to say that just because something happened to a couple of other fellows; it HAD to have happened to others.

[BlueDragon]

that malice you speak of...

Your own complaints about forum moderation came close on the heels of one particular individual being warned...and the moderator (as it appeared to me) telegraphing a "enough is enough" sort of thing.

All of which made me it seem to me the raising of "the religion moderator is unfair to Catholics" meme was partially in attempt to manipulate the babysitter, uh, I mean forum moderator.

But I've got one thing good I can say about the recent developments...

It seems you may have found a few of those previously non-existent scintillas.

I see progress!

[Elsie]

While you might deny that the story of Susanna is not scriptural...

True; I might; but the fact is that I didn't.

Why the urge to infer things not in evidence?

[Elsie]

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Too bad that Jesus knew not of this verse...

Luke 16:19-31 (NIV)

 

¹⁹ “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. ²⁰ At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores ²¹ and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

²² “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. ²³ In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ²⁴ So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

²⁵ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. ²⁶ And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

²⁷ “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, ²⁸ for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

²⁹ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

³⁰ “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

³¹ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”