Posted on 10/02/2014 8:31:27 AM PDT by Biggirl
Please provide scripture references to your position.
We are are not objects of His wrath, but plenty of His people have been subjected to the consequences of His wrath upon a Nation.
That is indisputable.
The totality of all believers is called “the bride of Christ”. In the ancient Jewish wedding the bride and groom are secluded for seven days after the wedding ceremony after which they are presented to the world and it’s then that they have the wedding feast. Jesus will be sent by the father to get His bride, there will be a ceremony after which Jesus and His bride will be secluded in heaven for the seven years (one week of years) of the tribulation after which will be the wedding supper.
I never heard it explained that way before. Interesting. Thank you, Cynical!
Not to mention the suffering endured by ALL of the apostles after Christ's death. And the little problem that no Christian theology that included a "Rapture" was known in any denomination, creed, prayer, hymn anywhere in the world before 1830.
Not planning to see the film in a theater (dropped that habit a few years ago) but I do have to wonder if the character of Nicolai Carpathia will be portrayed as a tall and painfully thin mulatto.
IMDB currently does not even list the part of Carpathia or antichrist.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
God's wrath is reserved for the disobedient.
Colossians 3:6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
We on the other hand have not been appointed to wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Please show your scriptural support of that.
Here is a good source to start a study if you are interested.
http://www.opendoorministrieswv.org/ancientjewishwedding.html
>>please shoe how that was caused by God’s wrath.
Are you familiar with the Babylonian conquest of the Southern Kingdom of Judah? The 'remnant' endured some harsh treatment due to God's Wrath coming down hard on the disobedient nation. Those devout Jews were treated harshly because of the sins of their brethren.
Refer to 2 Kings 24:20 - "For because of the anger of the LORD this happened in Jerusalem and Judah, that He finally cast them out from His presence"
Should we assume there were no devout Jews in this crowd? Preposterous.
Numerous people on this thread have pointed out to you that Roman Empire Christianity was no cakewalk. Our brothers all over the world are being beheaded for their faith today.
Is this DIRECTLY the Wrath of God?
No.
However, God judges nations at the time of their transgressions. He judges individuals at the Great White Throne. Two very different judgements.
Why do we pray for our government officials? So that our respective nations may not fall under judgment. This has nothing to do with the Wrath reserved for the ungodly at the Throne Judgement, where WE are safe.
In this mortal coil, we can be caught up in bad situations, that have nothing to do with our salvation.
We do incur physical consequences for living in a Fallen society.
Theology, more often than not, will put you in the religious ditch. Stick with God's Word and rely on the Holy Spirit as a guide. Rightly divide God's Truth and you will not fall victim to the sometimes very flawed reasoning of men, which is only amplified by centuries of teaching and repeating the same errors. Christianity was already under attack while Paul was still writing his letters. This is clear from the frequency of reproof and correction given the churches of his day which were succumbing to pagan influences and Judaizers. In one of his last letters Paul laments - All those in Asia have turned away from me... (2 Tim 1:15). If satan could not defeat the Good News, he would pervert it, making the word of God of none effect through tradition and ignorance.
Paul taught about Jesus coming to retrieve his body in the 1st century. His teaching on this is especially preserved in his letters to the Thessalonians. If you know who you are in Christ, what he has made you to be, and where you presently reside in him, Paul's revelation found in Romans through Colossians, you will have no problem receiving the Good News for His Body concerning the End Times. Even though the Thessalonian letters were written first, by divine purpose, they are always placed at the end of Paul's letters to the churches. You will not fully understand the who, what, when, where, and why of the rapture, unless you first truly understand what Christ has already done for you, and receive this revelation by faith.
Please stop the nonsense that it was started in the 19th century - I have heard this tripe for decades, and it still makes weep at the ignorance of the religious. That is no more true than the claim that Luther came up with justification by faith in the 16th century. Both were and still are in the New Testament, waiting to be read, received, and BELIEVED by each new generation
I leave you with two scriptures that rarely get read together. I truly believe there are no coincidences in God's Word, so I believe there is profound Truth here.
Hebrews 11:5-6 (AMP)
5 Because of faith Enoch was caught up and transferred to heaven, so that he did not have a glimpse of death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For even before he was taken to heaven, he received testimony [still on record] that he had pleased and been satisfactory to God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please and be satisfactory to Him. For whoever would come near to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He is the rewarder of those who earnestly and diligently seek Him [out].
My argument is that the Rapture is a nineteenth century hoax that was never part of Christian belief before that time. Your argument is that God will never visit his wrath on Christians, and that this somehow proves the Rapture is real. Since there is no example in the New Testament in which God wiped out whole regions or peoples with His wrath, as in the Old Testament, there is no way to prove or disprove that God would harm Christians in His wrath by direct scriptural example, but that certainly doesn’t mean it’s true. Moreover, it says nothing about whether the Rapture itself is part of God’s teaching.
Not Germain to this conversation prior to the death and ressurection of Christ the entire nation was Judged on the Faithfulness of the Priests. It was the priests who were in charge of keeping the teaching pure and error or paganisms out. The Priest offered the once a year sacrifice etc. Christ was the sacrifice once for all and it is no longer the entire nation but individuals in it that answer. An example of that can be found in the diilferent churches in Revelation. Even if the church itself has strayed there were individuals singled out who had not.
>>However, God judges nations at the time of their transgressions.<<
Not the faithful individuals. Witness Lot and His family. Also the promise to keep us from wrath.
>>He judges individuals at the Great White Throne.<<
The white throne judgment is for the saved to determine level of reward.
>>We do incur physical consequences for living in a Fallen society.<<
You don't believe God when He said we would be kept from the wrath to come?
We aren't talking about past or present but about what is to come. I would surmise you have read Revelations and understand the devestation. Jesus said it would be on all those on earth.
Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
That means that all the people on earth will feel the affects of that wrath. To think that the faithful "bride of Christ" is subjected to that wrath is to deny the promise to be kept from that wrath.
Really? What do you make of Matthew 25:31-46? Seems plain that our Lord is judging EVERYONE.
Hebrew 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
I see nothing here about "levels of reward" but the text does address a judging for salvation based upon whether or not we were OBEDIENT.
Thankfully, we have the best defense attorney, Jesus Christ, who gets us off when we are obviously guilty through his own blood sacrifice.
Those who were not obedient have to answer for their crimes with no defense attorney.
You are correct regarding Christ being the once and for all sacrifice, however that does not change the fact that believers in both new and old covenants have suffered the 'side effects' of God's Wrath. That does not mean they stand condemned, which you seem to think it would indicate, but it does indicate we can feel the effects of being in a society that has spurned God.
When this nation is humbled by God for loving baby murder through abortion and 'sanctifying' sodomites 'marrying' each other, do you think we will feel any effects? Of course we will. That doesn't mean we stand condemned, but our nation sure can.
That takes place after the battle of Armageddon at the end of the tribulation. The "bride of Christ" has been in heaven with Him for seven years and then returned with Him to defeat the armies of Satan. There are those who have accepted Christ during that time and survived to the end. They will live on to repopulate the earth during the 1000 year reign. The "goats will be cast into the abis.
>>Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”<<
Have your words been that you rely on Jesus alone for your salvation or have your words indicated you rely on what you have done?
>>I see nothing here about "levels of reward" but the text does address a judging for salvation based upon whether or not we were OBEDIENT.<<
So you think that Christ died for our sins but we still pay for them?
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
>>That does not mean they stand condemned, which you seem to think it would indicate, but it does indicate we can feel the effects of being in a society that has spurned God.<<
You don't believe His promise to keep us from His wrath and that we are not appointed to it?
The end of the world is at least 1,007 years away (tribulation + Millenial Kingdom), but the end of the Age of Grace is probably near.
The “Left Behind” movies are “False Doctrine”. A False Hope. A misdirected doctrine. The “Doctrine of Escape”. AKA, a Pre-tribulation rapture. But there is no escaping what is to come, unless you either leave this world prior to tomorrow, or, give your life to Christ NOW, so that you will have protection in the days to come. Believing in a pre-trib rapture is going to be a VERY BIG disappointment to those who pin their hopes to it....meaning, they may not survive the REAL “tests” when they do come. What WILL they do when our world is literally turned on its ear and they are still here?
2 Timothy 4:3
“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
These movies are based on “Dispensationalism”. It’s theology is based on SOME facts, like, God fulfilling His Promises to Israel, the millennium, and even the 3rd Temple, Jerusalem...the place where Jesus will Reign from when He returns, but...it’s “doctrine” is not in line with God’s Word, and Warnings.
We must never forget that Satan ALWAYS mixes his LIES into the TRUTH to disguise it. THAT, started in the garden, with the serpent. Since then, nothing has changed...except that he is a bigger LIAR than he ever was before.
You are confusing Jacob’s trouble with scriptures on God’s wrath not reserved for his people. The faithful remnant of Israelites went into exile with the unfaithful Israelites. They went into captivity under God’s wrath.
The wedding cannot take place till after all believers have arrived as his bride. Therefore the wedding will have to be after the millennium. The church will still be on earth during the final tribulation and many will be added to it’s numbers. People are saved during those 7 years and people are saved during the 1000 years till the final judgement and the lake of fire.
We are given new bodies when Jesus returns. Both those coming down out of heaven with Jesus and us still alive on earth who belong to Jesus. New bodies are for earth not heaven. The saints in heaven have not bodies, their bodies corrupt lie in graves right now. Then the resurrection when Jesus returns. Heaven will come down here to earth after Satan and angels bound for 1000 years. New Jerusalem (heavenly Jerusalem will join earthly Jerusalem) for a 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth. We will live in new Jerusalem in our new resurrected bodies. During those 1000 years the church will be added to, then the bride will be complete, then the final judgement, then the marriage. There are not 2 or 3 weddings just one.
What you are proposing is church is removed for 7 years with resurrected bodies in heaven and wedding (marriage feast) in heaven. Those saved after rapture will not get resurrected bodies for there is only one resurrection and will never be bride of Christ because they missed wedding. Cannot be, pre-trib jumbles scripture and prophetic timeline of bible. There will be many added to church during Great Tribulation including Jews, and there will be many who fall away from church ( faith) during these 7 years, they become offended with believers living in faith and even betray believers. They were not prepared (lamps not full of oil, Holy Spirit) for tribulation. May well be those who were waiting for rapture out of here and thought they would never see Great Tribulation. Be prepared the signs say we are close.
God’s wrath is hell eternal! Yes believers die and suffer, there are martyrs and suffering on earth till Jesus Christ’s return....ONE return not two.
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