THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: Condemned as Heretical by 2 Popes in the 5th and 6th Centuries

christiantruth.com ^ | William Webster

[metmom]

Matthew 7:28-29 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.

Mark 1:22 And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes.

The scribes were the intellectual heavyweights of the day. So much for intellectual prowess being needed.

[Iscool]

Fine, but please don’t refer to Christ as an “itinerant preacher.” It conjures images of anyone with white robe, bare feet, long hair and beard, like Indian shamans going about preaching their “own” interpretations of Scripture adding to Biblical anarchy.

That's the way Jesus shows up in Catholic paintings...That's the way Jesus shows up in the bible...I'll stick with the bible...

Petrine authority is not given to anyone and everyone to go teach anything and everything. Christ singled out one person Peter upon whom He founded His One Church, and solemnly bestows on Peter and His successors One authority to instruct in One truth.

Peter didn't teach much about the church as compared to Paul...And it was Paul who taught us to call no man father, condemned those who insist that Christians eat no meat on Friday, condemned those who insisted that clergy are forbidden to marry, and on and on...

But you would have us believe that while Peter didn't teach so much on the church, there was a succession of (unbiblical) priests who would follow Peter who taught you to ignore what Paul wrote...These followers would create a 'Church' unknown to the apostle Paul...And THAT Church would develop over the Centuries...

But we can see with the actual words of Gad that Paul never acquiesced to Peter but put him in his place a couple of times...

Peter never said anything about apostolic succession...It was some shyster down the road a ways who said, hey, I'm going to claim I'm the head of this religion and my authority goes back to Peter...Trouble is, up popped a few more of these shysters and the had to kill each other off...The last one standing was the leader of your religion... Again, I'll stick with the bible...

[metmom]

The fundamentalist tradition is basically anti-intellectual.

Simply a matter of opinion.

Besides, even if it is....

SPIRITUAL TRUTHS ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 2:1-16 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Nobody can intellectually reason their way to God.

[metmom]

It doesn't prove that we somehow lost the "originals" in a different language and we're "stuck" with Greek. Only that what we DO have is what God meant for us to have and it IS and REMAINS God's word.

That kind of thinking reflects the idea that God wasn't able to preserve His word for the world.

[dsc]

“but now that I see the mods have let you know”

That’s what they said.

“none of the “Protestants” turned you in for bad behavior”

I have not exhibited any “bad behavior.” Putting fang and claw protestants’ bad behavior at 100, no Catholic has exceeded 15 here, and that only under extreme provocation.

“You seem to have made up a “group” here in the RF”

You need to look up the difference between “made up” and “observed.”

“called the fang and claw protestants and accuse them of turning you in”

Yeah, the predictability with which the moderator rides to their rescue led me to that opinion. When you think about it, it’s actually worse that no one hit the abuse button, because that means the moderator is taking the time and energy to be pro-active about it. I wonder if the moderator posts here under a different name.

“Which they did not do.”

I have already admitted that, based on the moderator’s statement. Dwelling on it is just bad form.

“Not true, so wrong “opinions” twice.”

Nope, still the same error, still once.

“Wrong “opinion” again, third time.”

No, that one is correct. To hide their own thin-skinned behavior and distract the eye from their own bad behavior, the fang and claw protestants do, in fact, make a habit of slinging around false accusations of over-sensitivity.

You see, the moderators do allow personal insults here, so long as the poster is a tiny bit clever about it. I have demonstrated that on numerous occasions, and you demonstrate it once again by putting the word “opinion” in danger quotes.

*“As has been mentioned many times, if you (or any poster) is too thinskinned for the open threads, they should not be on them.”*

I really hate a bully.

“What’s wrong with that. It sounds like good advice to me?”

On a level playing field, there might be nothing wrong with it. What’s wrong with it here is that it translates to this: “We will insult you and lie about you to our heart’s content, and you will not be allowed to answer with the truth, so shut up.”

“What a concept! The posters arguing against the assumption of Mary”

They haven’t been “arguing,” in the correct sense of the word. The only argument they have is “it ain’t in da Biibull,” which is also true of things like the weather on the day of Jesus’ baptism. Since it’s not in the Bible, I assume there was no weather on that day. It was neither hot nor cold nor medium, it was neither sunny nor cloudy, windy nor not windy...there just wasn’t any weather that day, because it isn’t mentioned in the Bible.

“Non Catholic Christians don’t give those writings the weight of wisdom from God”

Do what?

“they (we) use the Bible...”

...incorrectly, to propagate error.

[mlizzy]

Then why not have pictures and statues of Jesus and only Jesus around your house???

Because we do not remember Jesus only as the Risen Lord. We remember him through his mother's Immaculate Conception, as the Babe in the Manger (with Mary obviously being there), along with [St.] Joseph, then the shepherds and wise men. Many holy people contributed to the "Jesus story." We do not forget them; they bring us closer to Christ.

Little story about the Sacred Heart of Jesus statue (on the right). This statue weighs an absolute ton; it takes two of the men in the family to move and position him. We originally left Jesus at the home we had lived at for 20 years, just because he weighed so much; we were about ready to drop after moving two decades of stuff, but a few days later, revived and missing our statue, we went back onto the property and seized him. We've moved twice since then; this latest move was only nine months after the previous one. Ugh! Anyway, my husband and one of our fallen-away sons, knew what they had to do for the third time in two years (a trinity of moves?), and as they grabbed Our Lord, with sighs and groans, I looked at my son who was about to collapse, and said, "Holy Jesus," eh, Patrick? Well, maybe you'd have to have been there, but it got a big laugh. My husband chose the location, which is perfect, Jesus, "Our Doorman."

[dsc]

“This? From a CATHOLIC?”

Amazing. I really don’t know how people look at one thing and see another. That’s why I distrust a person’s motives when they say things that diverge wildly from the truth.

[dsc]

“You maybe should have considered “..at Judge Parker’s convenience...”

The last time the protestants came after the Catholics in this country they had to misuse the KKK to do it. We survived.

[dsc]

What? You mean there have been bad popes?

You astound me, Homie.

Here’s a joke for you:

There were a couple of merchants who were friends, one a Catholic the other a Jew, and they were in constant discussions as to the superior nature of their chosen religions. At the time—around the 13th century—Christianity was on the rise, and the Jewish merchant was constantly amazed at the stream of conversions. The two friends attempted to convert each other, but neither could succeed. When on one occasion the Jewish man was planning a trip to Rome for business, he told his Catholic friend in a bit of a joking way that if what he found in Rome could convince him of the superiority of the Catholic church, he would convert. Upon hearing this, the Catholic man was fraught with fear, as the Rome of that period was as corrupt as could be. Bishops and Priests were selling dispensations and indulgences, while themselves participating in drunken debauchery and whoring. However, the Catholic merchant said nothing about this to his friend, hoping that he might not observe such things during his trip.

The Jewish merchant made his trip, and upon his return came to his friend and stated that he would convert to the Catholic Religion. His friend was perplexed, and asked what had been the determining factor. The Jew then went on to describe the worst excesses of a corrupt era. The Catholic man was shocked at what he heard, and asked his friend why he would want to convert in the face of such corruption. The Jewish man said, “Only through divine intervention could the Church survive the depredations of such corrupt men.”

[CynicalBear]

>>and as they grabbed Our Lord<<

You call that graven image "Our Lord"? Not much more needs said on that deal.

[CynicalBear]

>>That’s why I distrust a person’s motives when they say things that diverge wildly from the truth.<<

You mean like when somebody accuses someone else of hitting abuse when they didn't?

[CynicalBear]

>>The Jewish man said, “Only through divine intervention could the Church survive the depredations of such corrupt men.”<<

He must have foergotten how Satan also preserves Muslims and other religions.

[MamaB]

I grew up in a small MS town. I know there are more than 3 Catholic families there now but when I lived there, there were 3 families that I know were Catholcs. I knew all of them from school but we never talked about religion with them. Do not know why, we just didn’t. I can remember having friends:relatives from:
Assembly of God
Baptist—Southern, Hardshell, independent, and a few others which had started back in the 1800’s
Church of Christ
Church of God
Church of God of Prophecy
A few Black Churches
Methodist
Nazarene
Presbyterianmany of these were small community churches which did not have many people attending
I came across a poem about Cowboy churches. Their prayer was to have services in God’s outdoors. I can remember going to brush arbor services. They were wonderful. It was out in the boonies and we could admire God’s stars. I doubt if many people attended those which is a shame.

[mlizzy]

The Jewish merchant made his trip, and upon his return came to his friend and stated that he would convert to the Catholic Religion. His friend was perplexed, and asked what had been the determining factor. The Jew then went on to describe the worst excesses of a corrupt era. The Catholic man was shocked at what he heard, and asked his friend why he would want to convert in the face of such corruption. The Jewish man said, “Only through divine intervention could the Church survive the depredations of such corrupt men.”

BINGO! And, of course, it applies today as well.

[MamaB]

Some are not able to base their claims on what the Bible says and quotes what men say. I believe the Bible not men.

[MamaB]

Amen.

[Elsie]

I do not see how you derive (or support) the principle of Sola Scriptura from a passage that talks about judging people.

Perhaps the text was too small...

"Do not go beyond what is written."

[Elsie]

Putting fang and claw protestants’ bad behavior at 100, no Catholic has exceeded 15 here, and that only under extreme provocation.

I just loved it when the teacher said, after a test was finished, "Students; grade your own work."

[caww]

.....”I distrust a person’s motives when they say things that diverge wildly from the truth”.....

One has to actually know the truth as it is,... not what they want it to be,.... before they can declare another “says things that diverge wildly from the truth”. ......

The problem is not in the truth but in its application, as is often the case with philosophical verbal gymnastics which catholicism’s teachings invariably do..

As Christians we are told......”See to it that no one takes you captive ‘through’ philosophy and empty deception, ‘according to the tradition of men’, according to the elementary principles of the world,... rather than according to Christ,”....... (Col. 2:8)

It doesn’t matter how much one 'sincerely' believes a wrong key will fit a door; the key still won’t go in and the lock won’t be opened......Someone who picks up a bottle of poison and sincerely 'believes' it is lemonade will still suffer the unfortunate effects of the poison.... Or a person may strongly 'desire' that their car has not run out of gas, but if the gauge says the tank is empty and the car will not run any farther, then no desire in the world will miraculously cause the car to keep going.

Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias puts it this way....., “The fact is, the truth matters – especially when you’re on the receiving end of a lie.”.... And nowhere is this more important than in the area of faith and religion. 'Eternity is an awfully long time to be wrong'.

We do know that many things can have the truth, but only one thing can actually 'be' the Truth....it must originate from somewhere.......Jesus Himself declared He is the truth....and He, with certainty, gave us His word as the standard and ultimate source of His truth....

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Tim.3:16-17).

[BlueDragon]

oh puh-leaze.

As if the history of Roman Catholicism didn't have a bit of a history with the Joo-oos.

That was the "Judge" aspect.

Hanged at his convenience.