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Posted on 09/11/2014 11:19:06 AM PDT by Jan_Sobieski
Pope Francis has been a breath of fresh air for many Catholics seeking greater liberty and a growing concern for conservative Christians who take issue with his comments about homosexuality and other cultural issues.
But the pontiff's latest statement is sparking an uproar from believers around the world. Pope Francis sent a tweet Tuesday that absolutely violates the truth of Scripture:
"The Christian who does not feel that the Virgin Mary is his or her mother is an orphan," Pope Francis tweeted.
As of the time I wrote this column it had been retweeted about 4,000 times and many of the responses were in appropriately unkind. It's not appropriate to attack the pope for his beliefs. It's more appropriate to share the truth...
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Utterly false. Catholics worship only God. Perhaps you did not know before that that statement you made is utterly false, but you know it now, so if you continue to willfully assert that falsehood, you know where all falsehoods come from, and who the "father of all lies" is...
(Bringing this to the attention of other Catholic posters here, so they can perhaps express it more clearly to you than I have, if they care to, and make it plainer to you, so you will know without a doubt that "veneration DOES NOT EQUAL worship" for Catholics, and please don't ever forget that truthful fact.)
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"We are told to pray for other LIVING people and NEVER told to pray TO them after they have passed from this life. In fact, we are told NOT to try and communicate with the dead. Yes only God can read our hearts and minds but He specifically told us not to "contact the dead" or use pagan practices in worshipping Him. The Catholic Church openly admits that is what they do."
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If you take the time to read this, you will see what Catholics believe about that.
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Praying to Dead Folks
Tim Staples
March 17, 2013
In a previous post, I talked about the problem of how a saint in heaven could hear the prayers of multiple people praying to him at the same time. In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, James White attempts to make that discussion a moot point when he says there shouldn’t be any of this praying to dead folks to begin with:
The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely.
Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee.
If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:
And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White.
FIRST CONTACT
There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller.
In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ.
Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say "clearly" because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I'm not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers:
The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory…If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he's God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we "pray to the saints."THE BIBLE SAYS SO
The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to "run the race" of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old:
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them…Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God.But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus…
The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth:
The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity.Source: Catholic Answers - Tim Staples - "Praying To Dead Folks"
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Do you really mean to say that you interpret that to mean that you cannot have any other mother?
(If so, CynicalBear, you might want to contact a reputable medical science university (and all the sensational "news" media), and explain to all of them just how you arrived here on earth if you didn't have a mother who was not "Jerusalem".)
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>>"Now boatbums, I would strongly urge you to (in the future) start making an effort to learn a lot more about the authors you read,"<<
"Like the priests who diddle little boys and then supposedly handle Christ? Or the popes who oversaw the inquisition?"
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What a disjointed logical "non sequitur"! What on earth does making an effort to learn more about an author you plan to read have to do with bad priests?
Do you honestly believe it is somehow better for a person to remain totally ignorant and in the dark about a writer whose writings they are planning to read?
Now, regarding those bad priests, if you were to consistently follow that same policy of rejecting a group because of what some of its members do, you would have to reject Christianity entirely, since the closest group around Jesus, the "twelve" apostles, included one named Judas Iscariot, who did the most evil, dastardly act ever done by a human being (far worse than what any priest has ever done) -- he totally betrayed Jesus Christ, helping to get Him murdered. God used that dastardly evil act to bring unbelievable good out of it.
(And, by the way, that evil Judas also "handled" Jesus Christ directly, and even kissed him. The fact that there was an evil person among their ranks, of course, is not a good reason to abandon the teachings of Jesus and that group of "the twelve" apostles, which that evil man Judas was part of. Of course, one can use that silly excuse if they choose to, but it would be very foolish and self-defeating to do that.)
For instance here: [http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm]
Prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary
"My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession. Amen."
Just asking them to pray for you ey? How stupid do Catholics think people are?
Well you pretty much put a wrap on that actually. Straight to the point and didn’t mix words.
However it was something to consider, in catholicism, they do just that...mix a lot of verbage, layers on layers, until whatever they’re attempting to enlighten their hearers with gets sunk beneath it all...and as is their custom...that’s when they complain people are stupid, even against their own,....when in fact they’re simply burying what they themselves can’t grasp because there’s nothing there by the time they’ve wrapped it in all the other “stuff”.
Members? The priest is just a member now? Those are your leaders. The ones you go to to "receive Christ, to make confessions to and receive forgiveness from. Just a member indeed.
I saw a man on tv praying to Mary for protection. How can people lie about that because it was not the first time?
Yeah, that's why the Catholic Church had to threaten people to make them turn in their copies. /s
Flim flam comes to mind.
It's amazing isn't it? It's out there for anyone to see yet they deny it still.
And she had many other children with Joseph after she was not a virgin any longer. The only path to salvation is through Jesus and his cross.
Put another toddler in a room with a child playing by himself and see how long before one or the other wants the toy the other has. Nobody had to teach this little fellow to have a kissy fit...but they both have to be "taught" to share.
And here...this little gal is about to let go of the ball...and he's certainly going for it
Human nature is "sinful" from birth onward...it simply reveals itself as the aging process shows.
These fellows aren't taught to do this...they do so quite naturally
‘Show’ us what venerating is.....and then what it looks like to pray ....so we can see what the difference is.
You posted other photos so that would be helpful to see how there’s a difference..if there is one.
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CynicalBear, that just sounds like a flowery, poetic expression from a child to its mother.
Do this: Picture the "talker" being a child talking to his/her "mommy".
It fits perfectly, and does NOT constitute worship, just love.
Any kid who loves his mother could say those same exact words, and not be worshiping his mother as "God".
Catholics believe Jesus gave His Mother Mary to all of us from His cross (represented by that other disciple who Jesus loved - just as He loves all of us too).
Try this also: Picture a gentleman saying those exact same words to his wife, just replacing the word "mother" with the word "wife". It fits perfectly, and there is absolutely no "God worship" there whatsoever!
(Perhaps one has to be able to appreciate poetry in order to be able to appreciate such loving expressions.)
My second point is a question and a request:
1. Whose web site is that?
2. Please show me an authoritative source (such as the "Catechism of the Catholic Church") which declares that that person's poetic love song you found on that web site is an official teaching of the Catholic Church.
And Judas wasn't one of the leaders picked by Jesus?
The Bible teaches that it is God the Father whom we ought to direct our prayers to, but it also teaches that it is 'through' Jesus that we have that kind of 'direct access to the Father'.
Mark 15:38; tells us...... “And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.”
This “curtain” is the one that separated people from the Holy of Holies (aka “The Most Holy Place”) in the temple, the place where God’s presence dwelled.
The Holy of Holies was the place where once a year 'a priest' and make a sacrifice for the unintentional sins of the people of Israel (intentional or known sins were to be dealt with on a regular basis).
The curtain was torn in two by God at the time of Jesus’ death on the cross..... Hebrews 9:1-14 tells us how through Christ’s death we no longer are separated from God by the curtain.
However catholicism still insists on the priesthood and of praying to mary, any go between other than Jesus as HE taught us to do......they do not yet grasp the 'finished' work of Christ or understanding of....or they wouldn't remain in the catholic church for long.
Additionally the Priesthood and praying to mary are central to their church....without these and the relics, rituals etc which it has made a large part of their worship and religion... it would fall...
These are "Props" on the stage of the play they falsely name Christianity...and they've been playing it as a means of replacing True Christianity since Rome.
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"Veneration" as used when applied to saints (or other people) involves showing them honor, and regarding them with great love and respect. There are endless ways of showing honor, just like there are endless ways of showing love.
Here are some examples of showing that honor, love, and respect which you can ponder on:
And here's one example of how we worship God -- in a Catholic Celebration of Mass with soldiers in Afghanistan:
(By the way, can you show me pictures now of how you worship God?)
(I'll check back tomorrow, if I get a chance, as I have to run now. Goodnight to all.)
Then why did that man on tv pray to Mary for protection? It was not spoken like a child who loves his mother. Why didn’t he pray to Jesus? That speech does not sound like anything a child would say. It sounds like a prayer to Mary. I have never heard a child say anythng like that and I am 70. There is evidence or praying to Mary all over the place. All people have to do is be observant.
All those people are ‘real people here on earth”...not idols nor relics nor corpses.....and what you’ve shown anybody can show another human being without being catholic or Christian....
Show the veneration of a the saints you say catholics don’t pray to...and then show the difference when they do pray. pray.
Just check the Catholic Caucus threads that are posted every day. Almost always one devoted to Mary and prayers beseeching her for one thing or another.
Catholics show that same thing...”venerating” to dead and departed people and corpses......and the difference is?..other than they are dead.
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