Victoria Osteen and Her Joy-Robbing Brand of Cheap Christianity

There was a time earlier on in my Christian life where I was quite the zealous little theology cop. I would blast Joel Osteen and the likes of him with their biblically deficient statements about God on my blog, twitter, Facebook — any outlet I could find. I thought it was my job to stand firm and "defend God's truth," calling out every bit of erroneous teaching I came across. I'm not that person anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think that there is a place for exposing false teaching (and to be clear, I think that most of what I've heard of Joel Osteen's teaching is false). But I think it needs to be done out of a love for Christ and a desire for people to know Him in truth, not out of a egocentric desire to just be "right."

So, before I go into Victoria Osteen's comments, I want to say that my intention is not to put her on blast or to publicly declare her a blasphemous bimbo. There's enough of that on the Internet already. My intention is to discuss the cheap view of God that fuels the kind of comments she made in that video.

There is an element of truth to her statements about God desiring us to be happy and Him taking pleasure in our happiness. The Lord does not want His people be a mopey, despairing, steel-faced, jaw-clenched, stick-up-butt bunch of folks. Throughout the entirety of the Bible you see The Lord repeatedly commanding people to take delight in The Lord. David said that at the right hand of God are pleasures forevermore (Psalm 16:11)! Jesus said that He came and spoke truth to us that His joy may be in us and that our joy may be made full (John 15:11). When Paul wrote letters to the early Church, he did so for their progress and joy in the faith (Philippians 1:25). The concept of joy and the command to pursue it plagues the bible. You can't read it without realizing that the one true God is a happy God that desires his people to be happy as well.

So it's true — overwhelmingly true — that God wants us to be happy. But, the problem is that people like Victoria take this truth and slant it, ever so subtly, away from the God-centered-happiness that the Bible prescribes and toward a me-centered-happiness that the Bible condemns. God's greatest pleasure is not in our happiness (although He does desire that), but in His own glory. He wants His glory to be the fuel that our joy-appetites feed on. He wants His presence to be the longing of our souls. God wants us to be happy in Him.

"As a deer pants for flowing streams, so pants my soul for you, O God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God?" – Pslam 42:1-2

We were designed to be joy hungry creatures that fervently feast upon the glory of God. We were intended to be people that draw fresh life, day after day, from all the ways that God graciously manifests Himself to us. We were created to be people that are full out, head over heels obsessed with God. We were to seek Him constantly, pray to Him without ceasing, meditate on Him endlessly and do everything we do to see and experience more of His glory. And we were to enjoy living our lives this way.

But let's all be honest with ourselves, we naturally hate the idea of living our lives this way. Because sin has deformed our hearts. Before the fall, man had a heart that was outwardly directed toward God, but when sin entered in, our hearts folded inwardly and gazed upon ourselves. From the moment Adam's teeth sunk into the fruit of self-autonomy, the heart of mankind has sought happiness in and through himself, other people and everything around him. Anywhere but in God.

And I'm not just talking about meth addicts or porn addicts or prostitutes or crooked businessmen. Lots of people seek happiness apart from God but throw His name all over it. Using God for His this-side-of-glory gifts (aka the American Dream) without any real love for Him or desire to know Him doesn't count as seeking happiness in God. He takes no pleasure in that. But this is what I fear is happening in an incredibly large number of American Churches. This is what I fear is happening in the Osteen Church, based on the many things I have heard both Joel and Victoria say over the years. I won't pronounce judgment on them before the time (1 Corinthians 4:5), but I will say with certainty that taking the immutable, unstoppable and infinitely holy God of the Bible and reducing Him down to a three-wish celestial butler who is only here to make us happy — without us really having to surrender to, worship, adore or enjoy Him — is absolute heresy. There is a massive difference between enjoying God for who He is and "enjoying God" for what temporary or material blessings He can give you.

But this heresy is the 'gospel' of today's western spirituality. We refuse to worship a God who is opposed in any way to how we wish to live our lives. "God" is just this generic divine being who is here to affirm and bless whatever we feel like He should. We get to decide what we feel like is right or worthy of our worship, and then we yank the Holy One down off His throne and demand Him to bow at our feet and bless us our god-forsaken pursuits of purpose and joy.

A great example of this is this emergence of the idea that someone can be a "gay Christian"; a person who claims to worship Jesus Christ but refuses to actually worship Him by surrendering all that they are — like their fallen sexual impulses — to His authority and Lordship. But this kind of mentality goes far and beyond the same-sex attracted population. You'll find it among the dishonest business owners hustling for financial success, the twenty-something guidos pining after that GTL life, the straight guys manipulating girl after girl while trying to build up their 'I got some of that' trophy case — you'll find all walks and kinds of people living for godless pursuits, but still want a lil-bit-a Jesus on Sundays.

The cheap 'gospel' of western spirituality says that the path to happiness is accepting and loving yourself as you are, and believing that God wants to affirm you in whatever way that you choose to live out your life. But the real truth, the biblical truth, is that true joy is found not in self-acceptance, but self-denial. Not the insane, pleasure less I'm-gonna-beat-myself-with-a-stick-every-time-I-have-a-bad-thought kind self-denial, but the denial of sinful, me-centered thrills and spills for the sake of experiencing a better, pure, God-centered joy.

The reality is that if we're seeking happiness outside of God Himself, we're short changing ourselves. We're being cheap happiness chasers — living our lives for fleeting, momentary pleasures that can't satisfy our God-given capacities for God-centered joy. The void in our souls where true, God-centered joy was made to dwell is far too deep and wide for anything or anyone in this world to fill it. We will never be satisfied living our lives for ourselves. You will not be able to find contentment. We will always thirst for more. We were made to live for so much more than ourselves.

The Bible points us to a life of obsession with the beauty and glory of God because it's only when we lose ourselves in Him that we will ever actually find ourselves and, in turn, grasp true joy. Coming to God through the reconciling work of Jesus and feasting, day after day, upon all that He is for us — that will satisfy our souls. That will quench our thirst.

The call of the true gospel is not to be all that we can be and throw a little Jesus on it — it's to be reconciled to God through the work of Jesus Christ and to enjoy Him forever! God is the most valuable being in the universe. He's not boring or stiff or tame. He's outrageously interesting and the greatness of all that He is can (and will) be chased after for eternity. The best that He can give us is Himself, and that's exactly what He does in the gospel. If we want true satisfaction and lasting joy, we will not find it in going to church to "worship God for us" or in "doing good for ourselves." We won't find it in deciding for ourselves who and what we are. We will only find it in and through the Person of Jesus Christ.

True joy is wrapped up in knowing and savoring the Person of God. It can be found nowhere else.

I don't write this as someone who's got it all figured out. I love Jesus and have tasted of His goodness, but I still struggle to go to Him when my soul is dry. I still tend to so easily bend toward seeking out comfort for my heart in the cheap pleasures and pursuits of the world. But my hope is that this incredibly patient and merciful Source of all true joy will keep breathing fresh waves of mercy over my heart, re-shaping and re-creating me to be increasingly inclined to find all that I need and desire in the greatness of who He is.

No, that’s not denying Jesus. It’s a relatively new pastor in the spotlight and on the spot (maybe he wasn’t ready for this yet) who hates to condemn others and didn’t know who to answer the question. You people also ignore the fact he later apologized for not being more clear in his answer.

It’s one thing to say he screwed up on one particular occasion and even that is debatable (even man’s law deals with the motivations of the heart when accessing guilt or innocence - there is a strong argument that Joel’s motivation was trying not to condemn others and didn’t know how to answer the question because of that - not becasue he was “denying Jesus”). But that certainly does not prove by a preponderance of evidence that he lives a life as a heretic who denies Jesus.

Even a criminal is presumed innocent until proven guilty. And proof of guilt in civil court requires a preponderance of evidence. Here, you’ve attacked and accused a brother in Christ. Yet, there is no evidence of systemic, purposeful heresy or denial of Jesus, but rather most evidence is on the level of personal disagreement or dislike. That kind of evidence is irrelevant and amounts to a frivolous complaint at law. How much more before God’s righteous and merciful court. You have unjustly and wrongfully attacked and defamed the character of Joel, a child of the Most High, based mostly on personal preference. As I said to someone else, this is despicable.

As I also said, we all do despicable things, but God’s mercy and grace is greater than our sins. I know Joel has forgiven all who have and continue to attack him and so do I. He has moved on and so do I.

I’m done here.

Zuriel, you’re quoting in many cases scripture in the wrong administration and influenced by religious legalism, and in denial of clear scripture as to what true baptism now is in this administration:

Hebrews 9:10 -

“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”

Here, we see stated the old rituals done away with at the reform “Day of pentecost/administration of grace” which began in Acts 1.

Act 1:5 -

“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Act 18:25-26 -

This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

26 -

“And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.”

Here’s another example of how water baptism was still being practiced early on in the Church because of tradition. Like Paul, those people began to realize the true baptism of the new administration.

And when Paul had met with Apollos’ disciples, he was not satisfied with water baptism and taught them to be baptized into the name of Jesus Christ!

Romans 10:9 -

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Rom 10:10 -

“For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/watch-joel-osteen-on-larry-king-now-to-learn-why-megachurch-pastor-attracts-muslim-and-atheist-followers-112572/

And should you deny that it took place, Joel Osteen later issued an apology for it.

If he didn't do it, then what did he apologize for?

And by his apology HE admitted it happened.

http://carolinachristianconservative.blogspot.com/2005/06/joel-osteen-apologizes-for-larry-king.html

**Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you...”**

So, the Lord wasn’t commanding water baptism in Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; and John 3:5?

So, Peter wasn’t commanding water baptism in Acts 2:38; 10:47,48? (”can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...”. And..I believe that in harmony with those, He was INDEED referring to water baptism in his ‘like figure’ teaching in 1Peter 3:21

So, Paul, who rebuked the Corinthians for bragging about WHO baptized them, instead of whose name was actually called upon during baptism, shouldn’t have personally baptized the few that he did in Corinth? (Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas)

Now, we know that Paul preached to a lot of people in Corinth. But, he personally baptized a few himself, and was thankful he hadn’t done more since some of the Corinthians were getting preacher religion, because of who baptized them. Others with him, such as Silas and Timothy, probably performed many of the baptisms. Paul told the Corinthians that he was not sent to solely baptise, but to preach the gospel, and we know his wasn’t a John the baptist ministry.

**Peter says it saves us, but from what?
“Be saved from this perverse generation!”**

So, you are saying that the Holy Ghost is the new life, but doesn’t save us from ‘this perverse generation’; that water baptism does that?

**I’m sorry, but you are twisting scripture if you claim water baptism gives us life. Water baptism does not regenerate us, but it is a part of the sanctification - separation - process, as Peter clearly taught.**

Being born again gives new life. Water baptism is the death and burial, the Holy Ghost is life:

“Therefore we are buried with him in baptism INTO death”....
The Spirit is life, not death.....”that like as Christ was raised up from the dead BY the GLORY of the Father..”. Rm 6:4

“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” Col. 2:12

Burial is death. the ‘operation of God’ is the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit.

“For if we have been planted together” (you and Christ. that’s why you use his name in water baptism) “IN the LIKENESS of his DEATH, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”. Rm.6:5

If you could literally be buried be buried in the tomb, wrapped in the same linen with Christ, then you would literally have his blood on you.

**The blood cleanses us from sin. The water cleans us from the world, and dedicates our life to God.**

True, and that takes place in one action...being buried with Him.

**And when Paul had met with Apollos’ disciples, he was not satisfied with water baptism and taught them to be baptized into the name of Jesus Christ!**

Paul not only ‘taught them to be baptized into the name of Jesus Christ’, they then “were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus”. After which, when Paul laid his hands on them, they received the Holy Ghost baptism.

**Hebrews 9:10 -“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” Here, we see stated the old rituals done away with at the reform “Day of pentecost/administration of grace” which began in Acts 1.**

In Heb. 6:1-3, the writer is not discontinuing the ‘doctrine of Christ’, which included repentance from dead works, faith toward God, the doctrine of baptisms(plural), laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement. For he says: “And this we will do, if God permit”.

You see, the epistles were written to those already born again, already sanctified (saints). That includes Romans, which people incorrectly use as evangelistic teaching (bypassing all or much of Acts), instead of as it really is: instruction and edification to the saints.

Remember my pointing out how Paul said to the Corinthians (some of which were of Gentile ethnicity) “ALL our fathers were under the cloud, and ALL passed through the sea, and were ALL baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.”

The Israelites were as good as dead without crossing the Red Sea. Could God have preserved them with just the cloud? God knows, but he wanted them to leave that world behind and begin a new life. So, he made a way of escape, and it was ‘though the sea’. They then continued on with the cloud leading them.

Mainline Christianity makes ‘passing through the sea’ kinda important, but not urgent, and that it certainly doesn’t save. Moses would beg to differ with you.

Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets (Acts 24:13-14).

Oh, and by the way, one slip up or stumble in an interview (what he meant or was trying to say can be argued either way, but even that isn't really the point) is NOT SYSTEMIC, ON-GOING, PURPOSEFUL denial of Jesus.

The fact that he apologized anyway is further proof that your continuing accusations and attacks are unjust and uncalled for. I pray you stop, in Jesus name.

Bye.

**Of course. Now let me ask you, have you asked Jesus to be your personal savior?**

Yes, over fifty years ago, but wasn’t taught Acts 2:38 by my Calvinist ministers, EVER, during my time attending those churches. I trusted them, unfortunately, more than the Word itself. But God sent me a witness, to show me the way of God more perfectly.

“Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled”. Matt. 5:6

Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had, and come and follow him. This rich young ruler had been faithful to God in all that he knew up to that point.

And in the world of financial riches here in the US, there is this yap about the 1% folk. That makes for good, us versus them arguments, yet the line is not so precise. To me, the top 20% are financially rich compared to me.

Some folks are rich in family tradition, including church tradition as well. The truth of the Word forces separation from the world, separation in families, too. Here, the line IS precise:

“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.’ Matt. 7:14

I never said we are not commanded to have a water baptism, nor have I claimed it was unimportant. However, it is the Spirit that gives life, not water.

Water baptism saves you out of the wicked world we live in and show we are a people set apart. It follows new life, but does not give it.

“If you could literally be buried be buried in the tomb, wrapped in the same linen with Christ, then you would literally have his blood on you.”

True, and irrelevant since none of us literally have the blood of Jesus splashed on our physical skin. But when JESUS baptizes us in the Holy Spirit, we receive a new life. That life is not based on water but on what Jesus does - filling us with the Holy Spirit.

Water baptism is important, but it is important for the reasons Peter explained - it is part of sanctification, and separating us from this wicked world. There is no doubt about the “one baptism” that unites us with Christ:

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.”

Not water, but the Spirit is our baptism into Christ. There is a reason why the baptism in the Holy Spirit is so important:

“For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” - 1 Cor 12

You can argue with Peter and Paul all you want, but it is not water that gives us life:

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.