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Millennial Series: Part 10: The Historical Context of Premillennialism
Bible.org ^ | 1951 | John F. Walvoord

Posted on 08/24/2014 10:55:16 AM PDT by wmfights

While modern premillennialism depends upon Scriptural foundations for its apologetic and theological statement, it has nevertheless a significant historical context. It is regrettable that some historians have held low views of premillennialism, with the result that premillennialism has seldom had fair consideration in historical treatments of Christian doctrine. Liberals and skeptics surveying the evidence with theological indifference have often arrived at a fairer view of the evidence for premillennialism in history than those endeavoring to defend another millennial position.

It is hardly within the province of a theological study of premillennialism to include an adequate history of the doctrine. An exhaustive modern study of the subject remains for someone to undertake. Fortunately, the main issues are clear in even a casual study, and the significant evidence in relation to premillennialism can hardly be disputed by any scholarly sources produced to date. The evidence for premillennialism in the Old and New Testaments and in the literature and theology of the early church at least in its main elements is commonly recognized. It needs here only to be restated as forming the historical context of modern premillennialism. This testimony unites in one river of evidence that the theology of the Old and New Testament and the theology of the early church was not only prellennial, but that its premillennialism was practically undisputed except by heretics and skeptics until the time of Augustine. The coming of Christ as the prelude for the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness on earth in fulfillment of the Old Testament kingdom prophecies was the almost uniform expectation, both of the Jews at the time of the incarnation and of the early church. This is essential premillennialism however it may differ in its details from its modern advanced counterpart. Old Testament supports the premillennial viewpoint and that the Jews at the time of Christ held just such views of the Old Testament.

Amillenarians have followed two main routes to escape the logical result of this admission. The first has been to hold that a literal interpretation of the Old Testament was wrong. This is essentially the position of Hamilton quoted above. While he admits, “In fact, the Jews were looking for just such a kingdom to be set up by the Messiah in Jerusalem,”3 he continues, “Jesus Himself, in speaking of that whole idea said, ‘The kingdom of God is within (or, in the midst of) you’ (Luke 17:21), thus contradicting the idea that it was to be an earthly, literal, Jewish kingdom.”4 As he goes on to explain, the error in the premillennial interpretation is that they interpret the prophecies literally, just as the Jews did.

The other route followed by amillenarians is another expedient for disposing of the prophecies of the Old Testament without literal fulfillment. This line of thought is to admit that the Old Testament prophecies rightly promise the Jews a kingdom on earth as usually presented by premillenarians, but to cancel this promise on the ground that it was conditioned on faith and obedience. In other words, the promise will never be fulfilled because Israel failed. As Allis puts it, “…obedience is the precondition of blessing under all circumstances.”5 He goes on to argue that obedience is the condition for fulfillment of all God’s covenant relations, specifically the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic covenant, and the Gospel of grace.6

These two lines of amillennial argument, are, of course, contradictory. One assumes that a literal interpretation is right but fulfillment is forfeited for disobedience. The other assumes that literal interpretation is wrong and therefore only spiritual fulfillment is to be expected. Amillenarians like Allis use both principles even though their respective premises nullify each other. It is plain that they are determined at all costs to dispose of these kingdom promises without being too particular as to what method is followed. Premillenarians hold, of course, that the promises are unconditional and to be interpreted literally, and that premillennialism as found in the New Testament confirms the premillennialism of the Old Testament in no uncertain terms.

Premillennialism in the New Testament

The answer to the amillennial objection to premillennial interpretation of the Old Testament is found in the New Testament in two principal forms. First, the expectation of the Jews for literal fulfillment of the kingdom promises is confirmed. Second, this confirmation proves that the Old Testament promises are unconditional as to ultimate literal fulfillment.

It has been noted that rightly or wrongly it was the universal expectation of the Jews that the kingdom promises would be literally fulfilled. What does the New Testament have to say about this expectation? In Luke 1:32-33, Mary is told by the angel, in relation to the child Jesus, “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” In view of the common Jewish expectation, how would Mary interpret such a prophecy? It should certainly be clear that she would consider it a confirmation of the literal interpretation and literal fulfillment of the Davidic covenant. She would naturally expect that her child Jesus would sit on an earthly Davidic throne. In spite of the disobedience of Israel in the Old Testament, and the long years in which no one sat on the throne of David, here was confirmation of the precise expectation common among the Jews. Did Mary for one moment hold the amillenarian view? Would she spiritualize this passage—the throne of David is God’s throne in heaven; the kingdom is a spiritual kingdom; Israel is synonymous with the church? Certainly not! It was totally foreign to her thinking. If the amillenarians are right, Mary was sadly deceived. The prophecy of the angel could hardly have been better worded to confirm the ordinary Jewish hope as well as the exact essentials of the premillennial position—the literal and earthly fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

It is, of course, true that Christ taught much concerning the spiritual aspects of God’s kingdom. The Messianic kingdom on earth following the second advent by no means exhausts kingdom truth. The important point is, however, that whenever the precise kingdom promises of the Old Testament are introduced, these promises and their literal fulfillment are never denied, corrected, or altered, but are instead confirmed.

There is much positive evidence in the New Testament for premillennial teachings. It is clear that the Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their King and Messiah, not as their Savior, and in so doing fulfilled literally those prophecies dealing with His rejection and death. His rejection did not alter the kingdom promises, however. When the mother of James and John sought special privilege for her sons in the kingdom (Matt 20:20-23), her request was not denied on the ground that she had a mistaken idea of the kingdom, but rather that the privilege she requested was to be given to those chosen by the Father. Again Christ the night before His rejection and crucifixion told His disciples that they would sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the kingdom (Luke 22:29-30). In Acts 1:6, when the disciples wanted to know when the kingdom was going to be restored to Israel, they were not told that they were in error, that the kingdom would never be restored to Israel, but only that it was not for them to know the “times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power” (Acts 1:7). When Paul raises the question concerning the future of Israel, in Romans 9-11 , and considers the possibility of God rescinding His promises to them as a nation and casting them off forever, he exclaims, “God forbid” (Rom 11:1). The whole tenor of Romans 9-11 is to the point that while Israel for the present is cut off the olive tree of blessing, Israel is scheduled to be restored at the second advent, when the Deliverer will come out of Zion. It is expressly stated in this regard that “the gifts and callings of God are without repentance” (Rom 11:29), i.e., that God will fulfill His purpose regarding the nation Israel.

The book of Revelation is, of course, the classic passage on premillennialism. Revelation, while subject to all types of scholarly abuse and divergent interpretation, if taken in its plain intent yields a simple outline of premillennial truth—first a time of great tribulation, then the second advent, the binding of Satan, the deliverance and blessing of the saints, a righteous government on earth for 1000 years, followed by the final judgments and the new heaven and new earth. The only method of interpretation of Revelation which has ever yielded a consistent answer to the question of its meaning is that which interprets the book, however symbolic, as having its general revelation plain, one to be fulfilled literally, and therefore subject to future fulfillment.

One of the most eloquent testimonies to premillennial truth is found in the absolute silence of the New Testament, and for that matter the early centuries of the church, on any controversy over premillennial teaching. It is admitted that it was universally held by the Jews. It is often admitted that the early church was predominantly premillennial. Yet there is no record of any kind dealing with controversy. It is incredible that if the Jews and the early church were in such a serious error in their interpretation of the Old Testament and in their expectation of a righteous kingdom on earth following the second advent, that there should be no corrective, and that all the evidence should confirm rather than deny such an interpretation. The general context of the New Testament is entirely in favor of the premillennial viewpoint. The amillennial interpretation has not one verse of positive testimony in the New Testament and can be sustained ony by spiritualizing the prophecies of the Old Testament as well as the teaching of the New.

Extra-Biblical Premillennialism in the First Cenrury

The available evidence in regard to the premillennialism of the first century is not extensive by most standards, but such evidence as has been uncovered points in one direction—the premillennial concept. Peters in his classic work, The Theocratic Kingdom, cites no less than fifteen advocates of premillennialism in the first century.7 While his classification in some cases no doubt is debatable, in others it is undisputed. The notable testimony of Papias, who was associated with the Apostle John, is of special weight. Papias who lived in the first century and the beginning of the second lists as adherents of premillennialism Aristio, John the Presbyter and the Apostles Andrew, Peter, Philip, Thomas, James, John, and Matthew. He certainly was in a position to know their views, and his testimony is an important link in sustaining the fact that the disciples continued in the Jewish expectation of a kingdom on earth. Peters also lists as premillenarians Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp. In previous discussion of amillennialism, it was shown that the prevailing opinion of both amillenarians and premillenarians that Barnabas is premillennial in his views is fully justified. Hermas also is conceded by practically all parties as premillennial. In other words, there are clear and unmistakable evidences of premillennialism in the first century. Further, this viewpoint is linked extra-biblically with the apostles themselves. In contrast to these clear evidences, not one adherent, not one line of evidence is produced sustaining the idea that any first-century Christians held Augustinian amillennialism—that the interadvent period was the millennial. Further, there is no evidence whatever that premillennialism was even disputed. It was the overwhelming-majority view of the early church.

Premillennialism in the Second Century

The second century like the first bears a sustained testimony to the premillennial character of the early church. Even the amillenarians claim no adherents whatever by name to their position in the second century except in the allegorizing school of interpretation which arose at the very close of the second century. Premillennialism was undisputed for the first ninety years of the second century. Among those who can be cited in this century as holding premillennialism Peters names Pothinus, Justin Martyr, Melito, Hegesippus, Tatian, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Apollinaris.8 Of these Justin Martyr (100-168) is quite outspoken. He wrote: “But I and whatsoever Christians are orthodox in all things do know that there will be a resurrection of the flesh, and a thousand years in the city of Jerusalem, built, adorned, and enlarged, according as Ezekiel, Isaiah, and other prophets have promised. For Isaiah saith of this thousand years (ch. 65:17 ), ‘Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind; but be ye glad and rejoice in those which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem to triumph, and my people to rejoice,’ etc. Moreover, a certain man among us, whose name is John, being one of the twelve apostles of Christ, in that revelation which was shown to him prophesied, that those who believe in our Christ shall fulfil a thousand years at Jerusalem; and after that the general, and in a word, the everlasting resurrection, and last judgment of all together. Whereof also our Lord spake when He said, that therein they shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal with the angels, being made the sons of the resurrection of God.”9

While even modern premillenarians might not accept the details of Justin’s interpretation, the notable fact is that he clearly states the essentials of premillennialism—the second advent, followed by a thousand-year reign and the separating of the resurrections before and after the millennium. Further, Justin declares that this view which he advocates is generally accepted as the orthodox view of the church. Peters accordingly cites the conclusion of Semisch in Herzog’s cyclopaedia, “Chiliasm constituted in the sec. century so decidedly an article of faith that Justin held it up as a criterion of perfect orthodoxy.”10

The testimony of Justin is by no means unsustained by others, as Peters shows. Pothinus taught his churches at Lyons and Vienne premillennial doctrine which was continued by Irenaeus his successor. Melito, the bishop of Sardis, is declared a premillenarian by Shimeall in his Reply, based on Jerome and Genadius. Tertullian is generally regarded as a premillenarian. Others are less certain but the evidence, such as it is, seems to point to their holding similar positions.

In general, the second century, then, has a similar testimony to the first. All characters who have anything to say on the subject are premillennial and this is set forth as the orthodox opinion of the church. Those who may have denied it were classified as heretics, not simply for being opposed to premillennialism but for other reasons. The first opposition to premillennialism did not become vocal until the opening of the third century. Amillenarians and postmillenarians have not only no positive evidence in favor of their position but no evidence that there was even a reasonable minority in the church contending against premillennialism. Apparently no one of the orthodox Fathers thought of challenging this important doctrine in the first two centuries.

Premillennialism in the Third Century

In the third century premillennialism began its historic decline, and it is admitted by all that opposition arose to premillennial ideas. Opponents of premillennialism are found in Gaius, Clement, Origen, Dionysius, and others. The form in which the attack came consisted in the adoption of the allegorizing method of interpreting Scripture in a manner which is no credit to amillennialism. Rutgers, though a determined foe of premillennialism, analyzes Clement, for instance, as follows: “Clement, engrossed and charmed by Greek philosophy, applied this erroneous allegorical method to Holy Writ. It was a one-sided emphasis: opposed to the real, the visible, phenomenal, spacial and temporal. A Platonic idealistic philosophy could not countenance carnalistic, sensualistic conceptions of the future as that advanced by chiliasm. It shook the very foundations on which chiliasm rested. Robertson observed that ‘it loosed its [chiliasm’s] sheet-anchor,—naïve literalism in the interpretation of Scripture.’“11

It is not surprising that opposition to premillennialism should arise. All forms of true doctrine have opposition and even the majority view in the history of doctrine is not necessarily the right one. The point of great significance is the form in which the opposition arose. It was not the product of orthodox studies in the Scripture, nor of the application of tried and true hermeneutics. It was rather the subversion of the plain meaning of Scripture not only as applied to the millennial question but all other areas of doctrine. The church today with one voice condemns all of the early opponents of premillennialism as heretics. Opposition to premillennialism had its rise in the attackers of true Scriptural doctrine, and it was not until the time of Augustine (354-430) that one reputable adherent of amillennialism can be cited. The opposition of premillennialism in the third century is no asset to amillennialism. While amillenarians may hail the conclusions of the enemies of premillennialism, they accept neither the general method nor the theology of those who participated in the attack. Usually, like Allis, amillenarians abandon the early centuries as a lost cause and begin with Augustine.

The third century had its own continued witness to premillennialism, however. Among those who can be cited are Cyprian (200-258), Commodian (200-270), Nepos (230-280), Coracion (230-280), Victorinus (240-303), Methodius (250-311), and Lactantius (240-330). Some of these like Commodian and Nepos are undisputed premillenarians. Nepos early recognized the heretical tendencies of the Alexandrian school of theology, which was the first effective opponent of premillennialism, and he attacked them with vigor. Methodius is conceded as premillenarian by Whitby himself. It is clear, however, that a rising tide of opposition was beginning to manifest itself against premillennialism, and while the church managed to extricate itself from much of the other bad doctrine of the Alexandrian school, premillennialism became in time one of the fatalities. Premillennialism from the Third Century to Modern Times

All admit that premillennialism after the third century waned and lost its hold on the majority of the church. It was the time of the rising strength of the Roman Church. Both the theological and political atmosphere was against it. While there was a continued minority who held premillennialism both within and without the Roman Church, they were not very vocal and were quite ineffectual in continuing a strong testimony. The Reformers, while returning to true doctrine in many areas, accepted Augustine as the starting point for their theology, and for the most part accepted without much consideration his opposition to premillennialism. The fact that premillennialism was held by some fanatical sects did not give it much standing. It remained for the renewal of Scriptural studies some time after the Reformation to turn the attention of a large portion of the church again to the premillennial question. The last hundred years have brought premillennialism out of its partial eclipse, and among those who accept the inspiration of Scripture it continues to be an area of lively discussion. Most Bible institutes as well as some theological seminaries are today propagating premillennial truth, and scores of evangelical preachers, teachers, and missionaries, as well as widespread publications present premillennialism.

Modern Premillennialism

The general features of modern premillennialism are highly significant and need to be outlined before assuming the larger task of the analysis and defense of premillennial doctrine. Even a casual observer of the premillennial movement in the twentieth century can see certain important tendencies.

Infallibility of Scripture. Premillennialism is based on the thesis of the infallibility of Scripture. It stands or falls not only on the method of interpretation of Scripture, but also on the question of the infallibility of the Holy Scripture. For this reason, premillennialism is entirely confined to those who are conservative in their general theological position. Premillennialism has always been the foe of liberal theology and of unbelief in the Scriptures. It has often been attacked for this very reason. Much of the modern zeal of its opponents has not arisen in love for doctrinal purity, but in hatred of conservative Biblical theology. To be a premillenarian exposes one at once to all who have departed from conservative theology. Premillennialism remains a bulwark against the inroads of modern theology.

Literal interpretation. Modern premillennialism is dependent upon the principle of literal interpretation. Premillennialism is a result of the application of this method to Scriptural interpretation. It is accordingly the foe of modern liberal spiritualization of all areas of theology as well as the more confined spiritualization of conservative amillenarians. The literal method of interpretation is also vitally related to Biblical dispensationalism. The recognition of Biblical dispensations and the proper statement of dispensational distinctions is not in itself a method of interpretation but rather a result of a method—the application of the literal method. Anti-dispensationalists are always guilty of various degrees of spiritualization of Scripture. The dispensational method is the literal method. In this connection it should also be noted that extremes in dispensational distinctions do not have their rise in a more rigid literal method, but rather in the area of general interpretation. Extreme dispensationalism which divides the interadvent period into Jewish and Gentile churches, and makes much of the New Testament non-applicable to modern churches, is not more or less literal than ordinary dispensationalism. It is misapplication of the literal method rather than its proper use.

Evangelicalism. Premillennialism has been definitely an evangelical movement. While often charged with pessimism regarding this world and with “other-worldliness,” premillennialism has been a large factor in modern effective Gospel preaching. A premillenarian is usually a believer in the orthodox Gospel and an adherent of Biblical theology in all major areas. Premillennialism among other things has opposed legalism or the Galatian error as it exists today and has upheld the doctrine of grace both as the ground of salvation and as a rule of life for the believer.

Opposition to ecclesiasticism. Premillennialism has tended to be more independent of human and ecclesiastical opinions and more inclined to exalt the Scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as a basis for conduct. The modern tendency to exalt church programs often pursued in the energy of the flesh rather than in the power of the Spirit, and the trend to exalt submission to church authority rather than to the Holy Spirit have had no encouragement from premillennialism. Premillennialism has supported exegetical preaching, informal church services, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and extemporaneous prayers in contrast to the ritualism, formalism, and mechanical tendency of modern Christianity.

Emphasis on prophetic studies. It is transparent that premillennialism has also exalted the study of prophetic truth. In contrast to the common neglect of even the essential doctrines of the second advent, heaven, hell, and final judgment, usually omitted from liberal theological preaching, premillennialism has focused the white light of careful investigation on Scriptural teachings concerning future things. Prophetic Bible conferences are inevitably premillennial in their doctrine. Neither amillennialism nor postmillennialism ever aroused much interest in prophecy.

Such is the historical context of modern premillennialism. Rooted in the Old and New Testaments, a product of literal interpretation, nurtured by the Apostles and the early church, eclipsed for centuries by the dark shadows of pagan philosophies and allegorizing methods of interpretation, emerging once more as a dominant strain in Biblical theology in these eschatological times, premillennialism is more than a theory, more than a doctrine. It is a system of Biblical interpretation which alone honors the Word of God as infallibly inspired, literally interpreted, and sure of literal fulfillment. It has stirred the coals of evangelicalism, created interest in Biblical study, and constituted a preparation of God’s people for the coming of the Lord for His saints. Premillennial truth has been an inestimable blessing to those who have received it. To them the Bible has become a living book to be interpreted in its ordinary sense. It is significant that the Bible study movements have usually been premillennial, and institutions which emphasize the study of the text of Scripture, as illustrated in the Bible institute movement, have often been an integral part of the premillennial movement.

The larger task of examining the foundations of Biblical premillennialism remains before us. The method of approach will be first of all general, then specific, and we trust with profit to the readers.

Dallas, Texas

(Series to be continued in the July-September Number, 1951)

This article was taken from the Theological Journal Library CD and posted with permission of Galaxie Software.

3 Ibid., p. 39.

4 Loc. cit.

5 Allis, op. cit., p. 33.

6 Ibid., pp. 32-48.

7 G. N. H. Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, I, 494-95.

8 Ibid., I, 495-96.

9 Ibid., I, 480.

10 Loc. cit.

11 W. H. Rutgers, Premillennialism in America, p. 64.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: amillennialism; dispensationalism; johnwalvoord; millennialism; premillennialism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
so far this thread has resulted in three major false teachings being refuted: 1. Jesus is not a King today. 2. there is a future covenant to be made with national Israel, other than the new covenant in Jesus blood which is final and eternal. 3. and this whole the Father has a wife teaching. all three take away from the glory and honor due the Lord Jesus Christ.

Except you haven't refuted ANYTHING! Your OWN false doctrines have been refuted continuously since you first made a peep on these Millennial Series threads. Does your Bible have Ezekial in it? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekial+16&version=KJV. The Lord God speaks of Israel as His wife there and the sins "she" was guilty of by whoring after false gods. Do you have Jeremiah 3? Read that https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah+3&version=KJV. Verse 20 says, "Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord." Did you read Jeremiah 31, or is that not in your Bible? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah+31&version=KJV

Did you read Hosea like I suggested? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+2&version=KJV. How about Isaiah 50? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+50&version=KJV. The restoration of Israel as Jehovah’s Wife is also described in Isaiah 54:1-8, and the remarriage is further described in Isaiah 62:4-5. Hosea, who had much to say about the adulteries of Israel, also spoke of Israel’s reunion with her husband. Therefore, the wife of Jehovah and the bride of Christ ARE two separate entities. Something you have YET to acknowledge or explain how they aren't. Imagining yourself an instructor explaining the Trinity and the nature of Almighty God to those of us who never doubted NOR questioned that, only shows more hubris on your part. Don't think an abundance of words can disguise that!

It serves no purpose to continue to discuss a subject with someone who has NO inclination to examine if his doctrine is true or not. To assert he believes the Bible but then pretends vast portions of it are inconsequential, only shows hypocrisy and I have NO desire to spin my wheels or take my time re-re-re-explaining the same thing. There IS no escaping the truth that Israel IS called the "wife of Jehovah" and the church is the "bride of Christ". Deal with it and just maybe you can begin to understand God's purposes and plans for the nation of Israel (He's NOT done with her yet). God does not renege on His everlasting and unconditional promises. To think He does, only shows a total lack of trust in Him.

141 posted on 09/01/2014 9:57:58 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums; one Lord one faith one baptism
Does your Bible have a bunch of redacted sections in it? When you read all those passages that have already been shown to you where Almighty God refers to the nation of Israel as his "wife", that He was in a covenant "marriage" with her, that she committed adultery by going after strange gods, that He gave her a bill of divorce, but would one day draw her back to reconciliation and be reunited and she would be His again, do you just black out all those passages???

Close but no cigar - Two wives... The house of Israel, and the House of Judah.

One received a Divorcement (the House of Israel)

Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

See Judah compared to Israel?

Judah was not divorced... Notice, 'put away', not divorced.

Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

[...]

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
Isa 52:4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Isaiah 54...Right after 53 where Messiah is crucified... Who is the barren woman?

Isa 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Isa 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
Isa 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
Isa 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

She can only be one entity - The House of Israel. Y'all are missing half the story...

And lastly Hosea, written specifically to the House of Israel where YHWH promises to remarry her and predicts her paths... but how can He without breaking His own Torah? For she had slept with other gods during her divorcement. This is a HUGE question, answered in Romans 7.

No, there is no doubt. YHWH has two wives, and neither one is named Mary. It is her context in the House of David, and in the house of Judah that she was chosen. Judah bears a Son from the House of David. That is why Judah weeps for her firstborn in Zech 12:10... Him whom they have pierced... That is why Judah necessarily remained married.

142 posted on 09/01/2014 10:49:58 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
here’s what we can say - when the last person who is elect ( be they Jewish or Gentile ) is in the Ark, i.e. Israel, i.e. The Church, i.e. the Body of Christ, then the end of the world will come and it will be the day of the Lord ( Judgement Day ). so all Israel will be saved.

So does this mean that the Lord's return awaits His recognition by all Israel as a particular entity, after the full number of the Gentiles has come in (distinguishing the two). because a particular hardening has come upon part of the Jews?

143 posted on 09/02/2014 8:01:44 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: redleghunter; editor-surveyor

Where did someone deny Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord or lords


post #28


144 posted on 09/02/2014 6:18:06 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: redleghunter

1. if I missed four questions posed to me, it certainly wasn’t by design. anyone is free to pose them again if they still wish an answer.

2. re reconciling Matthew 24 with Revelation. telling someone to read Matthew 25 is not an answer. Matthew 25 makes no mention of any 1,000 year reign, does it?
Matthew 24 is exceedingly clear and lines up perfectly with 2 Peter and 1 Corinthians 15, when Jesus returns it is the end of the world. notice Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not shed its light and the stars will fall from heaven.....” this verse tells us the Church is on earth during the tribulation and before the so called “rapture”, the sun is darkened. Why? Time has ended, it is the day of the Lord, Judgement Day. There can not be any 1,000 year reign after this, the earth is destroyed and there is no light from the sun. where do we see this so called millennial reign in either Matthew 24 or 25?

3. I asked you to define Israel in Romans 11:26 using the literal historical method you said you use.
ok, ready folks.......here is the answer “It’s defined by Paul as Israel and not church”
brilliant!! Israel is defined as Israel and not church.
Lol, it’s as if I asked someone to define what an apple is and what told “it’s an apple and not a pear”

you then mention the OT speaks of a faithful remnant.
my question is, faithful to what? Acts 4:12 “and there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved”


145 posted on 09/02/2014 6:37:15 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: redleghunter

2 Peter 3:10 speaks of the day of the Lord, which is the same day as described in Matthew 25. once the Judgement is complete, “and then” indicates the earth will destroyed immediately after Matthew 25 concludes.

there is no literal 1,000 year reign described in either book.


146 posted on 09/02/2014 6:41:22 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: boatbums

I have the chapters in Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea and Isaiah and you know what I did not find?
anywhere in those 4 books where it states the Father has a wife. you know why it doesn’t say that in those 4 books? Because the Father doesn’t have a wife and never did.
As I explained, Christians interpret the OT in light of what we find in the NT.
in the NT, we find “NO ONE” can come to the Father except through Jesus.
in John 10, Jesus says “I know MY own and MY own know me”
in Matthew 1:21 it says “ and you shall his name Jesus , for He will save HIS PEOPLE from their sins.
in Revelation, we see the New Jerusalem, but no mention of any wife of the Father, do we?
no, this dispensational invention that Israel and the Church are two separate and distinct entities is totally un-Scriptural and not believed by anyone before Darby came along.
there are religions out there that teach man can approach a Holy God on their own righteousness, but not Christianity.
Christianity alone says all men have sinned and are out of fellowship with a Holy God and there is nothing man can do about it. But God loved us so much, that He Himself provided the remedy for sin, a perfect sacrifice in the death of His Son. so only when someone is “in Christ”, do they have peace with God because Christ is the mediator between God and man. this proves the Father can not have a wife, because the only way God reconciles man to Himself is through His Son.
I wouldn’t be so quick to call 2,000 years of Christian teaching “false doctrine”, especially when the SCRIPTURES specifically say in the latter days many false teachers will arise and fool many. and how true that statement is, all one need do is open your eyes and look around.


147 posted on 09/02/2014 7:03:05 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: roamer_1

I would suggest interpreting the OT by the NT, NOT the other way around.

Jesus says in John 10, “ so there shall be ONE FLOCK and ONE SHEPHERD”


148 posted on 09/02/2014 7:05:37 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

I provided the latter portion of Matthew 25 for a reason. It speaks of Christ judging on earth. From His Throne. Don’t think the earth is melted yet given the nations gather before Him. So Matthew 24-25 does not indicate the future account as witnessed by Peter in 2 Peter 3:10. Of course that will happen as Revelation 21 indicates.

For several posts across three threads in this series no one has asserted there is another path to salvation. Their is only One through Jesus Christ. The remnant of Israel will weep the One they pierced and call upon His Name.


149 posted on 09/02/2014 7:14:21 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

You might want to cross reference Matthew 24 use of “Coming of the Son of Man” with other NT and OT references. In both testaments there are several events to happen on the Day of the Lord. Melting everything is just one.

That is unless you don’t see OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled as irrelevant.


150 posted on 09/02/2014 7:33:38 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: daniel1212; boatbums; redleghunter

So does this mean that the Lord’s return awaits His recognition by all Israel as a particular entity, after the full number of the Gentiles has come in (distinguishing the two). because a particular hardening has come upon part of the Jews

__________________

the question puts the cart before the horse, it appears to indicate there is an entity called Israel that exists and then at some point recognizes the Lord.

“Israel” is a person, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is Israel.
all human beings are born with original sin and a sin nature, therefore they are separated from God and unless they are regenerated, born again they will die in their sin and be eternally separated from God. these people are in Satan’s kingdom.
the elect, whether born in OT or NT, whether Jew or Gentile, become Israel, that is they are placed “In Christ”, when they are regenerated, baptized into Christ , grafted into the olive tree, become part of the one flock.
these are in the kingdom of his beloved Son.

so when Paul says “ so all Israel will be saved “, this can only refer to all those in Christ, all those who have been regenerated , all those added to the Church who are being saved ( Acts 2:47 )
anyone who rejects Jesus, who denies Jesus is the Christ, is called the anti-Christ in 1 John 2:22. to hear such people today be referred to as “Israel” by people calling themselves Christian is foreign to true Christianity.

once someone is added to Israel, they are no longer Greek, or Swedish or Irish or Jewish, but they are a new creature, one in Christ.
if someone is not in Israel, it doesn’t matter if their nationality is German, Arab, Chinese, Jewish or Nigerian, they are enemies of God since their sins have not been forgiven.
all through history, a certain number of those with Jewish DNA have come to faith in Jesus and have become part of Israel. the large majority have not however.
God is very well aware of who the elect are and who are not. once the full number of elect Gentiles and elect Jews are in the ark, there will be a shout of the archangel, the trump will sound and Jesus will return as King and Judge.


151 posted on 09/02/2014 7:36:14 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: redleghunter

I deal with this in post #146. both Matthew 24 and 2 Peter agree, when Jesus returns, it is the last day.


152 posted on 09/02/2014 7:38:25 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

If you want to promote false doctrine, that is on your head.


153 posted on 09/02/2014 7:39:04 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

false doctrine? I asked who Israel is, since Romans 11 says all Israel will be saved.

your answer was the 12 tribes.

apparently you don’t want to defend that answer, I don’t blame you.

if someone is a member of one of the 12 tribes, but deny Jesus is the Christ, they are Israel? who is promoting false doctrine?


154 posted on 09/02/2014 7:44:24 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Romans 11 precisely addresses the issue.

Your attempts to misquote God are foolish.


155 posted on 09/02/2014 7:54:41 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Jesus Christ mentions the earth melting?


156 posted on 09/02/2014 8:02:29 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; boatbums
I have the chapters in Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea and Isaiah and you know what I did not find? anywhere in those 4 books where it states the Father has a wife.

3 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord. 2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. 3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed. 4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth? 5 Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest. 6 The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. 9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. 10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah. 12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever. 13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. 14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: 15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. 16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. 17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart. 18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. 19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me. 20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord. 21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the Lord their God. 22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the Lord our God. 23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the Lord our God is the salvation of Israel. 24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters. 25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the Lord our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God.

  1. Wife, Adultery, Divorce, Married - verses 1, 8, 9, 14, 20
  2. Father - verses 4, 19

157 posted on 09/02/2014 8:03:07 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Cvengr

Romans 11:14 “in order to make my fellow Jews jealous and thus save SOME of them”

Romans 11:26 “ and so ALL Israel will be saved”

hmm, v14 says “Some” and v26 says “all”.

clearly the 12 tribes can’t be Israel.

care to elaborate on where I am “misquoting” God?


158 posted on 09/02/2014 8:03:22 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: redleghunter

the Word of God says the earth will be burned up.

hopefully you accept 2 Peter as the Word of God.


159 posted on 09/02/2014 8:05:12 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: af_vet_1981

truly in the Lord our God is the salvation of Israel


Who is the salvation of Israel?

hint: it is not God the Father.


160 posted on 09/02/2014 8:10:16 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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