Posted on 08/19/2014 7:57:09 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
This coming August 22, the Feast of Mary, Queen of Heaven will be celebrated throughout the world. Deepertruth will focus this Tuesday on this most important topic.
The Marian teaching “Queen of Heaven” is steeped in Old Testament tradition.
There are those who misunderstand this teaching and will even claim it is Pagan. Nothing can be furthest from the truth.
Some will surely want to raise the scripture coming from Jeremiah 7:16-18, “You, now, do not intercede for this people; raise not in their behalf a pleading prayer! Do not urge me, for I will not listen to you. Do you not see what they are doing in the cites of Judah, in the streets of Jerusalem? The Children gather wood, their fathers light the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven, while libations are poured out to strange gods in order to hurt me. Is it I whom they hurt, says the Lord; is it not rather themselves, to their own confusion?”
The queen of heaven that Jeremiah is speaking of is not the Blessed Virgin Mary who is the true Queen of Heaven, but rather a false god. The Israelites worshiped Pagan gods that displeased the Lord. The Babylonians worshiped a woman called “Ishtar“, she was the goddess of love and war. Prostitution was a part of the temple worship. She was known to have had many lovers.
Contrast this with the Blessed Virgin Mary who represents chastity, modesty, faithfulness, and love of God. She is the purest of God’s creation. Unlike Ishtar and other female goddesses who were worshiped and called “God the Mother“, the Blessed Virgin Mary is called Mother of God. Not because she is a goddess, she is not, but because Catholics recognize Jesus as Divine. He is truly God and man.
Is Mary the true Queen of Heaven, is there such a position within the kingdom of God? The answer is yes, and this Queen is the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The foundation for this is found in 1 Kings 2:12-20. “When Solomon was seated on the throne of his father David, with his sovereignty firmly established, Adonjah, son of Haggith, went to Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon. ‘Do you come as a friend?’ She asked. ‘Yes’, he answered, and added, ‘I have something to say to you,’ She replied, ‘Say it.’ So he said: ‘You know that the kingdom was mine, and all Israel expected me to be king. But the kingdom escaped me and became my brother’s, for the Lord gave it to him. But now there is one favor I would ask of you. Do not refuse me.’ And she said, ‘Speak on.’ He said, ‘Please ask King Solomon, who will not refuse you, to give me Abishag the Shunamite for my wife.’ ‘Very well,’ replied Bathsheba, I will speak to the king for you.’ Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right.”
Bathsheba thus became the first Queen of Israel, the Queen was not a wife of the king, but the King’s mother.
Jesus is truly the Son of David, The angel Gabriel spoke of Jesus saying, “Behold, you (Mary) will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Luke 1:3-33).
Jesus said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me. I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne, as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne” (Revelation 3:20).
We see a glimpse of this heavenly glory with the Messiah in heaven in Psalms 45. In verse 9-10 we see a very important scripture relating to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus. It reads, “daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor; at your right hand stand the Queen in gold of Ophir”. Psalms 45:1-9 refers to Jesus and verses 9-17 concerns this queen. The same Queen St. John writes, “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (Revelation 12:1).
Psalms 45 continues to say, “Hear, O daughter, consider, and incline your ear; forget your people and your father’s house; and the king will desire your beauty. Since he is your Lord, bow to him; the people of Tyre will sue your favor with gifts, the richest of the people with all kinds of wealth. The princess is decked in her chamber with gold-woven robes; in many colored robes she is led to the king, with her virgin companions, her escort, in her train. With joy and gladness they are led along as they enter the palace of the king. Instead of your fathers shall by your sons; you will make them princes in all the earth. I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations; therefore the peoples will praise you forever and ever”(Psalms 45:9-17).
Notice that the “rich” seeks her favor, just like Adonjah had first sought Bathsheba’s intercession.
The Queen of Psalms 45 will be remembered and celebrated in all generations, and the people will praise her forever.
Is there any other woman in history that can fit this description? Hillary Clinton?
This praise will not be worship that is given to God alone, but it will be honor and petition.
Notice what Mother Mary says, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree; he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away. He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity for ever” (Luke 1:46-55).
Psalms 45:9-17 and Luke 1:47-55 speak of the same person. The Virgin Mary, as the Queen of Heaven represents Jesus Christ in all that she does. There is no likeness to the pagan goddesses that were worshiped by the Babylonians and the cultures surrounding the nation of Israel in the Old Testament.
a response to the us lutheran-roman catholic dialogue ...
www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src...
Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod
visible difference between Roman Catholics and Lutherans, not to mention ... Veneration and invocation of the saints and Mary became an issue in the.
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I didn't specify which Lutheran denomination I was referring to -- I merely said "many Lutherans", which is true.
The difference between what those various Lutheran denominations define as their beliefs and teachings, and what erroneous Catholics do who disobey their Church's beliefs and teachings, is that people like Pelosi do NOT define the teachings of the Catholic Church - only the Church in her teaching authority granted by God can do that. Think very carefully about that distinction before making glib but untrue responses, because it is NOT the same thing, and to assert that is to assert a falsehood.
(Gotta run now, but I urge you to consider that seriously.)
Jesus also says to ask in His name, John 14.13. Ask for the Holy Spirit Luke 11:13. The obvious difference is they are all requests to God.
Can you discern that plain and simple distinction, which applies to humans both here and in the afterlife?)
Of course, we ask living humans to pray for us, they can hear us. Discern for me where those who have passed to glory can answer or hear prayer. They can't and don't or we would have a credible biblical source showing us the practice. Jesus taught for three years, the prophets and Apostles for many more, in none of their writings is prayer to the dead mentioned in a favorable light or mentioned at all as efficacious. "The prayers of the righteous man availeth much.." James 5:16. As in a man still here on earth.
They aren't 'Lutherans'. They pretend to be.
he difference between what those various Lutheran denominations define as their beliefs and teachings, and what erroneous Catholics do who disobey their Church's beliefs and teachings, is that people like Pelosi do NOT define the teachings of the Catholic Church
Lutherans are defined by the Lutheran Confessions. So the example you point out is erroneous as well. ELCA is Lutheran, Like Pelosi Biden LCWR etc are Catholic.
I do find it interesting, that the place you find support for your contention is among the apostate, abortion loving, gay marriage crowd at elca. “See, they are just like Catholics in praying to Mary and the dead. And they are Lutherans because they say so.” Great company you keep.
No it doesn't...No where in your Catholic list is that definition to be found...But look at 'em...Worship, worship, worship...
1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.
6. that which is prayed for.
All worship...The following do not belong...They are incorrect...
7. a petition; entreaty.
8. the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action desired.
An entreaty which always is said or written as 'I pray', I pray you' or 'I pray thee'...It is not a prayer, it is a petition...
9. a negligible hope or chance:
And that one is just a metaphor for, hope or chance...
As the Bible plainly shows, there are many different forms of prayer (as clearly shown by Jesus and some of His recorded prayers, such as the "Our Father", His prayers in Gethsemane, His prayers on the Cross, etc.) Do not try to falsely limit prayer to one kind of prayer only -- that is simply wrong.
Sure, lots of kinds of prayers but they are all worship...Any communication with a deity is worship...
Let's start with the verse you ignored - Psalm 141:2. I'll take the words of David over your cherry-picked dictionary definition.
By attempting to restrict the definition of "prayer" to only what you personally dictate it to be is an example of the logical fallacy of "overly broad or narrow definitions".
I'll stick with the words of David - prayer is sacrifice, in other words, an act of worship. The only definition that matters is God's definition of prayer. However, it is interesting to note that in the citation of man-made definitions you provided, you skipped over entirely the first seven definitions given by Dictionary.com. I'm sure you noticed that the first three explicitly stated that prayer is communication with God or an act of worship and none of the others supported your position. For some reason, you skipped down to the "British Dictionary definitions for prayer" and even then skipped the primary definition to parade around the secondary definition. Of course, the primary definition makes the point which Iscool raised and which I endorsed:
1.a. a personal communication or petition addressed to a deity, esp in the form of supplication, adoration, praise, contrition, or thanksgiving
b. any other form of spiritual communion with a deity (emphasis mine).
As the Bible plainly shows, there are many different forms of prayer (as clearly shown by Jesus and some of His recorded prayers, such as the "Our Father", His prayers in Gethsemane, His prayers on the Cross, etc.) Do not try to falsely limit prayer to one kind of prayer only -- that is simply wrong.
Where is the Biblical example of a legitimate prayer is offered to anyone other than one of the three persons of God?
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What kind of logic is that?
The ELCA Lutheran denomination prays to Jesus, just like you and your own Lutheran denomination does, xone. "Great company you keep."
When their Lutheran denomination, or your Lutheran denomination, or any other Lutheran denomination (or any other kind of denomination) teaches something that is correct, like praying to Jesus, or utilizing intercessory prayer to the saints, they are in alignment with the teachings of the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ, and I agree with them concerning those specific correct teachings only.
When any of these Lutheran denominations or any other denominations teach something wrong which goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ (such as advocating abortion and homo-marriage), they are obviously NOT aligned with the Catholic Church on those specific teachings, and they are completely wrong about them. There is a very plain and simple difference there.
Now, Pelosi and Biden do not comprise some other denomination, but, rather, are people who claim to be Catholics, but they do not believe or follow all the teachings of the Catholic Church. There is a VAST difference between the two situations.
(By the way, how many Lutheran denominations are there in the world now?)
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Wow, you not only redefine the meaning of scripture, now you are redefining dictionary definitions!
The Lord's Prayer consists of mostly petitions, after Jesus initially addresses the Father. Are you really trying to claim that petitions are not prayers?
Then you say, "Any communication with a deity is worship... "
That is correct, and any communication with a created being is definitely NOT worship, in the teachings of the Catholic Church. Anyone who claims that those kinds of communications are worship is 100% wrong.
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Okay, let's take a look at that text, and in fact the entire prayer of David in Psalm 141.
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1 Lord, I cry unto thee: make haste unto me; give ear unto my voice, when I cry unto thee.
2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.
3 Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips.
4 Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.
5 Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.
6 When their judges are overthrown in stony places, they shall hear my words; for they are sweet.
7 Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth.
8 But mine eyes are unto thee, O God the Lord: in thee is my trust; leave not my soul destitute.
9 Keep me from the snares which they have laid for me, and the gins of the workers of iniquity.
10 Let the wicked fall into their own nets, whilst that I withal escape.
Psalm 141
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Are you seriously trying to claim that David is declaring there that all prayer is sacrifice? (If you honestly believe that that is what he was saying there, I can only urge you to read that Psalm over and over and over again, until you get its real meaning.)
Then you said the following:
"However, it is interesting to note that in the citation of man-made definitions you provided, you skipped over entirely the first seven definitions given by Dictionary.com. I'm sure you noticed that the first three explicitly stated that prayer is communication with God or an act of worship and none of the others supported your position. For some reason, you skipped down to the "British Dictionary definitions for prayer" and even then skipped the primary definition to parade around the secondary definition. Of course, the primary definition makes the point which Iscool raised and which I endorsed"
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That is like saying , "Well, the 8th Commandment is not important, since it is not one of the first 7 commandments", or saying that the 8th Apostle picked by Jesus Christ was not important because he was not one of the first 7 Apostles picked.
With that kind of fallacious thinking, if a person was sent into the hospital for a series of tests, and the first 7 doctors/health professionals and their tests came out fine, but the 8th test revealed that the person had the ebola virus, that patient would say, "No problem! Since it was the 8th test, and not one of the first 7 tests, it cannot possibly be valid!"
A patient who thought with that kind of specious reasoning and logic would place themselves in great danger.
Please think this over again.
With that, I'll say goodnight to all.
You guys are something else...You ever hear of a supplication??? A supplication is asking something from God; a petition...
1Ti_2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
Even your example from the apostate elca, doesn't condone or endorse prayer TO the saints. Read what they said, not what your want it to say.
There is a VAST difference between the two situations.
Exactly the same situation, people claiming one thing, but in practice are something else.
(By the way, how many Lutheran denominations are there in the world now?)
Lutheran is a denomination, defined by the Lutheran Confessions. To the extent that a body is in consonance with those confessions, they are Lutheran. Many who call themselves Lutheran aren't, just like Catholics.
Didn't David consider his prayer to be sacrifice in verse 2? If not, please explain how you see something else in the text. Why don't you explain to us the real meaning because there is nothing in the other verses which would negate that conclusion?
In your earlier post, you accused me of this:
By attempting to restrict the definition of "prayer" to only what you personally dictate it to be is an example of the logical fallacy of "overly broad or narrow definitions".
I was merely pointing out that you were doing exactly what you had accused me of by your selective use of an obscure definition. I wasn't the only one who immediately spotted your cherry-picking and the obvious conclusion that the most common definitions established the link between prayer and deity and/or worship.
Please think this over again.
Since you missed the point entirely, why would I waste my time with a rebuttal of something I didn't say?
I assume you are still trying to find that Biblical example of a legitimate prayer offered to someone other than God? (I specify legitimate because I'm not interested in pagan prayers offered to Baal and other false gods.)
So according to your interpretation of RC teaching, a person could pray to Satan (a created being) and not be involved in Satan-worship?
Ouch! Or bow before an image of Satan.
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Are you saying you are having a problem with the use of the term "petitions" as compared to the term "supplications" when applied to prayers?
Here is a brief description of "The Lord's Prayer" from the Encyclopedia Britannica:
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"The Lord’s Prayer resembles other prayers that came out of the Jewish matrix of Jesus’ time and contains three common Jewish elements: praise, petition, and a yearning for the coming Kingdom of God. It consists of an introductory address and seven petitions."
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Do you have a problem with that description?
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Well, only if you don't count Luther as a Lutheran. Here I'll highlight that part for you again (from those same Lutherans at that same Lutheran link), so that you can't miss it this time:
"Luther supports praying with Mary and even to Mary"
And a more accurate response to the question "How many Lutheran denominations are there currently in the world" would at least include a count of these web-listed North American Lutheran denominations:
A
Alliance of Renewal Churches
American Association of Lutheran Churches
American Lutheran Church
Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church
Anti-Missourian Brotherhood
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Confessional Lutheran Churches
Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
C
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Confession
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Conference of the Norwegian-Danish Evangelical Lutheran Church of America
E
Eielsen Synod
English Evangelical Lutheran Synod of the Northwest
Evangelical Catholic Church
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Evangelical Lutheran Conference & Ministerium of North America
Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Evangelical Synod of North America
F
Fellowship of Lutheran Christians
I
Independent Lutheran Diocese
International Lutheran Fellowship
L
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church–Canada
Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod
Saxon Lutheran immigration of 1838–39
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation
Lutheran Confessional Synod
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ
Lutheran Free Church
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod – USA
N
National Evangelical Lutheran Church
North American Lutheran Church
Norwegian Augustana Synod
Synod of the Norwegian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
O
Orthodox Lutheran Confessional Conference
P
Protestant Conference
S
Synod of Evangelical Lutheran Churches
U
United Evangelical Lutheran Church
United Lutheran Mission Association
W
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
World Confessional Lutheran Association
(To narses and Salvation: I noticed your interest in some of the other recent Marian threads, and thought you might be interested in the recent posts in this one also.)
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In that text you cited (Psalm 141:2) David did NOT say that all prayer was sacrifice, or that all prayers must be directed to a deity, as you claimed. Let's read it again:
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"Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice."
Psalm 141:2
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David is asking God to let his prayer be set before God as incense, and the lifting up of his (David's) hands as the evening sacrifice. What David means there is exactly what he says. No person with at least minimal competence in the English language would seriously claim that David was saying there that all prayer by every person at all times was a sacrifice, or that all prayer must be directed toward a deity, any more than they would claim that all prayer must be accompanied by the raising of ones hands.
Then you issued this challenge: "I assume you are still trying to find that Biblical example of a legitimate prayer offered to someone other than God? (I specify legitimate because I'm not interested in pagan prayers offered to Baal and other false gods.)".
For one quick example, let's turn once again (like you did) to David:
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"Bless the Lord, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the Lord, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure."
Psalm 103:20-21
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In his prayer recorded there in Psalm 103, David is talking directly to God's angels, exhorting them to "bless the Lord". His prayer at that point is specifically directed to angels, fellow created beings.
To help you learn more about these matters, and for some more biblical examples of non-worshipping prayers to other created beings, here are a couple helpful links:
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The Catholic Church teaches Catholics to pray to God and to good angels such as their guardian angels, St. Michael, St. Gabriel, etc., and to saints - NOT to Satan, or to evil spirits. For information about praying to Satan, you will have to talk to fellow non-Catholics about that.
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