Responding to “Spiritual but Not Religious” Christians

http://www.jonsorensen.net ^ | July 22, 2014 | Jon Sorensen

[NKP_Vet]

Over the last several years I have encountered a fair number of Christians who claim they are “spiritual but not religious.” In other words, they do not identify with a particular Christian denomination, using the Bible alone to guide their faith. It’s an ideology that says religious institutions are outdated and unnecessary.

People may reach this conclusion for a multitude of reasons. Some are disillusioned by what they perceive to be corruption and hypocrisy in religious institutions. Others may feel like they are not being “fed.” Others yet may feel that these intuitions teach something contrary to their beliefs regarding political and social issues.

Whatever the reason may be, we must reach out to these people and take their concerns seriously.

Jesus started a religion

Most dictionaries define religion as “the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.” It is abundantly obvious from Scripture that Christians are called to worship the one true God (cf. Matthew 4:9, Mark 5:6, Luke 4:8, John 4:23). I’m sure most “spiritual but not religious” Christians will agree with this.

The issue is whether or not one can do this privately, reading only Scripture and coming to their own conclusions on theological matters, or whether one must submit to some authority outside of themselves.

Jesus started a Church

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus says to the apostle Peter, “you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church.” Catholics believe that in this verse Jesus is bestowing on Peter a position of authority from which the office of the pope is derived. But even if the “spiritual” Christian has problems with this belief, there is no escaping the fact that Christ intended his Church to be both visible and authoritative.

In Matthew 18, Jesus says to his disciples:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector (15-17).

If Jesus did not intend his Church to be authoritative and visible, then what Church is he talking about in this verse? It’s clear in the text that this Church is communal.

It is also evident from Scripture that Jesus intended this community to gather regularly for worship:

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb. 10:25).

This verse indicates that, even in the first century, there were Christians who did not think it was necessary to gather for worship. This runs contrary to the idea that one can be a church unto himself as long as he has accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. The Lord intended his Church to be a community.

Is the Bible all you need?

On his way from Jerusalem to Gaza, Phillip the Evangelist encounters a eunuch reading the Book of Isaiah:

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him(Acts 8:27-31).

The point of this passage is that the clear meaning of Scripture is not always evident. This is reinforced again in 2 Peter 1:20:

First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

And yet again in 2 Peter 3:15-16:

So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Clearly, just picking up the Bible and interpreting it for your self is not recommended. A teacher is necessary; preferably an authoritative one.

What about scandals in the Church?

As my colleague Tim Staples is fond of saying, “You don’t leave Peter because of Judas.” From a Catholic perspective this means you don’t leave the Church because someone didn’t live up to its teaching.

I came into the Church during the height of the priest abuse scandal. I was certainly concerned about it (as most Catholic laypeople were), but ultimately the number of people out in the world doing good work far outweighs the number of people who have abused their positions. For more on this I recommend reading our special report, A Crisis of Saints.

Many “spiritual but not religious” Christians have also expressed concerns about events in history. It’s true that Christians throughout time have acted contrary to the faith, but like the abuse scandal, it should be remembered that history is filled with good and holy missionaries.

It’s also worth pointing out that many of the events in history have been blown way out of proportion in the popular imagination. Catholic Answers has dozens of great articles about this available at this link.

Get back to where you belong

It’s clear from the Bible that Jesus did not intend Christians to live out their spiritual lives in a vacuum. He founded a Church, gave it authority in the areas of faith and morals, and guards it from teaching error (Mt 18:17-18).

At Catholic Answers, we have a mountain of great resources making the case that the Church Jesus founded is the Catholic Church. If you or someone you know is “spiritual but not religious,” please consider reading what we have to offer.

[Elsie]

I don’t know....

Neither do most folks; it seems.

The LAW was given to the JEWS: the Choen People.

One will look a LONNNnnngg time for a COVENANT that GENTILES signed onto.

[NKP_Vet]

“The world doesn’t need another system of religion for people to try to find their way to God”

You’re right. The world does not need another system of religion, Christ only started on faith, Catholicism. Thanks for helping me out.

[NKP_Vet]

“He founded a Church, gave it authority in the areas of faith and morals, and guards it from teaching error (Mt 18:17-18).

He certainly did and that Church is the Catholic Church. Only the most rapid die-hard Catholic Church haters deny this historical fact.

[daniel1212]

“He founded a Church, gave it authority in the areas of faith and morals, and guards it from teaching error (Mt 18:17-18).

He certainly did and that Church is the Catholic Church. Only the most rapid die-hard Catholic Church haters deny this historical fact.

Once again you are resorting to argument by assertion, but as shown and said, the RCC cannot be that particular church, as,

Error #9, as the church of Rome is fundamentally contrary to the NT church, [it] is not where real disciples of Christ belong.

He founded a Church, gave it authority in the areas of faith and morals, and guards it from teaching error (Mt 18:17-18).

Error #10. That is the fundamental error, for besides the fact shown before that despite the wishful thinking of RCs, Mt 18:17-18 nor any other texts do not teach an an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)

Nor that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium, and thus those who dissent from the latter are in rebellion to God. For as said, this would invalidate the church itself, which began with common people recognizing what the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation would not, that a couple itinerant Preachers were of God.

You continue to post all the pro papal propaganda, but which are exposed as fallacious, and thus you continue to provide reasons why one should not submit to Rome. Let me know of your next attempt! .

[Elsie]

The world does not need another system of religion, Christ only started on faith, Catholicism.

[Elsie]

He certainly did and that Church is the Catholic Church. Only the most rapid die-hard Catholic Church haters deny this historical fact.

[Elsie]

You may answer #117 and #118 if you wish.

[af_vet_1981]

In the case of 2 Peter 1:20, to resolve the disputed language, we have to look at the logical flow of Peter's argument. What was being contested? And why did Peter choose to resolve that conflict by telling his readers that Scripture comes from the Holy Spirit?

answers, albeit constrained due to finger typing smart phone
1. False teaching within the flock, the cause of some sheep, for whom he is responsible from a direct commission by the LORD Jesus, to fall away
2. after his apostolic eyewitness testimony he appealed to the other Jewish scriptures as an even greater testimony, but only when properly interpreted; wrongly interpreting the Prophets leads to heresy, and then Peter tells us where that leads.

[af_vet_1981]

In the case of 2 Peter 1:20, to resolve the disputed language, we have to look at the logical flow of Peter's argument. What was being contested? And why did Peter choose to resolve that conflict by telling his readers that Scripture comes from the Holy Spirit?

I think Peter gets to the heart of the matter immediately when he lays out the great gift and promises to us from God, and explains how to make sure we are not led astray by those who personally interpret the scriptures incorrectly. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He then explains that he knows his life here is almost over and he is greatly concerned for what will happen to the sheep with whom he was entrusted after he is gone; so he reminds them of all this in a form which not only reaches them once, but can be retained for reference after his martyrdom.

He then explains his evidence, both as an eye witness Apostle who actually heard the voice of God, and from the word of God that came by the Holy Spirit through the prophets. He does not seem to indicate that his immediate audience were Gentiles unfamiliar with the Jewish prophets. I still assume they were primarily Jews of the Diaspora, as in his first epistle, although the addressee portion is ambiguous so it is much more generally addressed to all believers at that time. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies refers to "the people", ie., Israel, and uses the word "heresies" which Strong's defines a bit differently than the conventional English definition after centuries of usage. In the NT usage there are nine occurrences
hairesis: choice, opinion Original Word: αἵρεσις, εως, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: hairesis Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-ee-res-is) Short Definition: a self-chosen opinion, a sect Definition: a self-chosen opinion, a religious or philosophical sect, discord or contention.

It is translated as sect or heresies in the KJV, and I cannot help but look at how it was a "self-chosen opinion" that separated the chooser(s) from the orthodox truth.

He repeats the purpose of the epistle. This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

He reminds and warns them not to be deceived by those who also interpret the New Testament scriptures from Paul incorrectly, along with the other Scriptures, and not to fall from their own stedfastness.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

So I think the epistle is much more about the interpretation of Scripture, rather than the origin, and the most important lesson to take away is: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[delchiante]

Rahab the spiritual harlot was saved when the walls of Jericho fell.

She and her family was placed outside the camp, separated from Israel, but she and her family was saved. That is not just a history story.. all of scripture is about Him and His Kingdom..

But being ‘saved’ is taught differently in church... those parables in the kingdom say that there is more than just here and then being poofed into eternity as His bride. There will be a kingdom of 1000 years.. Ezekiel is an entire prophetic book of the millennial- even with animal sacrifices! We can’t make sense of it.. but Israel didn’t understand the new moons, Sabbaths and feasts or the sacrifices either or why they did them, when the Messiah came..

Again, everything in our bible points to Him and His Kingdom..His Kingdom isn’t just a ‘place’, it is a set of rules, governing life. And scripture tells us obedience to Him is what love is..
He gave it to Israel in Torah and through the prophets and then ultimately through His Son..not so we can ignore His rules for our own but so that we turn from our disobedience.

And Jews didn’t get it., and the church has ignores it because they think none of it is important since He came.. There are even some who think all the Torah is null and void now..
That is strange consisting Torah became flesh and dwelt among us and lives forever..
Because of the attitude of ignorance, the church has even made up holy days when the days He gave Israel all point to the Messiah!

And how awesome would it be to know His real birthday? Or the day He was baptized? Jews were told to observe those days, not knowing what they were shadowing.. church ignores those because they probably havent made the connection, either..

I am no pope, no priest, no evangelist, no preacher....just a guy who asked, sought and knocked and willing to obey..

But with observing His calendar, timekeeping, reading and studying His Word and His Amazing Grace, I know His birthday, circumcision, dedication, baptism days- and the real days for His death, burial and resurrection.. and they cannot be found with the world’s system..and it is all within the pages of scripture... hidden, but searchable.

You and I would have to guess what our birthday is on His calendar. Instead, we have to guess what His birthday is on the world’s calendar.

That makes perfect sense in a counterfeit world..

[delchiante]

Salvation is the first part of our journey, according to scripture. Not the end..

Messiah says the Kingdom is in us, here in this age. Grace and mercy is needed unless none of us would be ‘saved’.

Scripture also says His Kingdom is coming- 1000 year reign..Satan is locked up and we have the 30,60,100 folds of believers. Ezekiel paints a prophetic picture of what s to come...

And then we have the last Kingdom age - the eternal Kingdom.

Kingdom is described as a place when it is actually a system, a government, rules to live by..the parables point to one, two or all three of the Kingdom ages and I think the church misses it..

But part of that Kingdom is Ezekiel 46:1 and the calendar that is found throughout scripture...

Usually, church says you live this life and become a spotless Bride in eternity.. that skips some rather big pieces in His plan... but again, Satan is running the first kingdom age of 6000 years here on earth, so we can expect deception.

We have a spiritual journey that only begins here...
Scripture prophetically tells us what His Kingdom on earth will be..again, read Ezekiel..
There shockingly will be animal sacrifices as ascribed in Torah.. David is coming back to be king of Israel and prince below Messiah who will rule the world as King.
Those new moons, Sabbaths and feasts you consider ‘legalistic’ are going to be observed.
They all were shown to Israel to point to Him and His Kingdom.. there are not just made up holy days with no significance,,
They contain the very plan that Messiah has fulfilled in part, literally. Only a couple things left..
And a wise virgin will be ready so that it does not come as a thief in the night.
The least in the Kingdom will be those who break the commands and teach others to break the commands.. Those who are great in the Kingdom will be those who do the commands and teach others to do them. (Mathew 5:19)

We will be there, under His rules, His government for 1000 years.

The rahabs and spiritual harlots who were trapped in Jericho(shadow of Babylon) will be ‘saved’ by His grace, because they did hide the messengers of YHWH, but their harlotry causes them to be placed outside the camp-for 1000 years.. they are shadowed at Jericho as those pulling up the rear in the battle/march.. they are also pictured as water carriers ad wood cutters for the Kingdom.

The 60fold are the levite priests who did wander away so they will have a less prominent role and the 100fold will be the priests of Zadok and they will have access to the Messiah..
That isn’t taught in church.. but scripture shadows it and the parables of then kingdom do give us come clues..

Obeying Him versus following the world seems like a no brainer until following Him conflicts with what the world says or rejects Him outright..
We are told those believers are waysiders, and rocky soilers, and thorny soiled..
And the parable says they do not get into the Kingdom..

We can live the Kingdom right now and reject satan’s authority in our work and worship life..
We need not accept his lies for truth.
We will know what was Truth and will learn it for 1000 years until that small mustard seed grows up and matures into the spritually, perfected Bride our Bridegroom deserves..

Satan need not steal our promise or steal or counterfeit our Messiah..

The Greco roman Latin savior and the Messiah of Israel has the same words accredited to them..

The greco roman latin church teaches us by tradition that he was born on December 25.
He was perfect and sinless.. the word that became flesh and dwelt among us.
He was killed on good Friday, laid in the tomb and Saturday and raised from the dead on easter sunday..
None of that story/teaching has scriptural proof..

Scripture, His calendar and His sky witness and tell us the Messiah of Israel was born on a New Moon Day, the first day of His sixth month
When the woman was ‘clothed’ with the sun and the moon was under her feet( Rev 12:1- picture of the constellation Virgo in His sky on a New Moon)
I will just give you the first New Moon and let you find the others.

Or if you would like, I can certainly go through a his entire life in scripture and show you how each event happened on a new moon, Sabbath or Feast..
You can then compare what church traditions teach and what scripture teaches.

There is a choice...

Again, those new moons, Sabbaths and Feasts on His calendar that Christendom discounts so much as ‘laws’ or legalistics’ are just the biggest days in the Messiah’s life..

How would any bridegroom feel if His bride was so ignorant of Him?

If we get to His Kingdom reign on earth, we will have 1000 years to really know Him and it will start with knowing Torah because it was Torah that became flesh and dwelt among us..
I think reading and studying ahead and being obedient today in preparation for tomorrow is a wise move..

And I cant argue with what He is teaching me.. His Spirit will only lead to Truth..

[Legatus]

The greco roman latin church teaches us by tradition that he was born on December 25. He was perfect and sinless.. the word that became flesh and dwelt among us. He was killed on good Friday, laid in the tomb and Saturday and raised from the dead on easter sunday.. None of that story/teaching has scriptural proof..

I'm sorry, everything else aside, are you disputing the part I bolded above? If so you've lost your entire audience I think.

[CynicalBear]

>>There shockingly will be animal sacrifices as ascribed in Torah..<<

Not shocking if one understands prophecy.

>>Those new moons, Sabbaths and feasts you consider ‘legalistic’ are going to be observed.<<

Yes they will. But it’s still “legalistic” during this “dispensation of grace”. That’s the one area you seem to not understand.

>>The least in the Kingdom will be those who break the commands and teach others to break the commands..<<

Once again, you ignore the words of the Holy Spirit through scripture.

Acts 15: 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

It is true that the temple will be rebuilt; sacrifice will once again be instituted and even will be during the millennium as a remembrance. It is untrue that all those laws apply during this “dispensation of grace” as Paul called it.

Ephesians 3:2 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

So yes it’s important to study and understand God’s calendar and His time table but it’s also paramount that we understand that today we are in the dispensation of grace. Israel and the laws have been temporarily set aside to be taken up again after the “fullness of the Gentiles has come in”.

[CynicalBear]

>>Only the most rapid die-hard Catholic Church haters deny this historical fact.<<

You wish. The Catholic Church trying to re-write history notwithstanding there was no “Roman Catholic Church” until Constantine. Additionally the apostasy and atrocities perpetrated by the Catholic Church would stand to prove that it’s in no way the “church” Christ founded.

[Elsie]

You may answer #117 and #118 if you wish.

Since today is not a good day for you; how about tomorrow?

[NKP_Vet]

“there was no “Roman Catholic Church” until Constantine”

There is no such thing as the ROMAN Catholic Church. It is he Catholic Church. It is headquartered in Rome. It is composed of the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ when Peter was made head of the Church. Makes no difference how many times heretic break away faiths deny the the truth, it’s still the truth.

[CynicalBear]

>>The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ when Peter was made head of the Church.<<

At no time and in no way was Peter made head of the Church. Christ is head of the assembly of believers the meaning of which the Catholic Church has corrupted with the word “church” and her false presentation of that notion.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Jesus didn’t leave some mortal man to be His “vicar” on earth, His “vicar” on earth is the Holy Spirit.

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And the Holy Spirit through Paul made in abundantly clear that the same Holy Spirit is given to all believers and there was no distinction between the apostles and other believers.

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

The Catholic Church is a corrupt organization and an imposter which ensnares it’s followers in lies and deception.

>>Makes no difference how many times heretic break away faiths deny the truth, it’s still the truth.<<

Indeed! And the truth is found in scripture and not some apostate organization called the Catholic Church.

[NKP_Vet]

Christ is head of the assembly of believers the meaning of which the Catholic Church has corrupted with the word “church” and her false presentation of that notion.

All faiths other than Catholics and Orthodox are in schism with the Church of Christ. Nothing in the world but break away heretic false Christian faiths.

Christ established one very VISIBLE Church, the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as an “Invisible Church” of believers who never sat their foot inside a house of worship. End of story.

[CynicalBear]

>>There is no such thing as an “Invisible Church” of believers who never sat their foot inside a house of worship. End of story.<<

Then answer this question. Is every individual who has membership in and attends the Catholic Church saved or are there individuals who belong and attend who will not be saved?

[NKP_Vet]

No one knows who will inherit the King of Heaven. No one knows who’s in heaven.