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To: boatbums; editor-surveyor; daniel1212; metmom; Greetings_Puny_Humans
I'm relieved to hear you say (write) that, but there HAS been someone here claiming that very thing and is who has been disputed by the words of Paul (through the Holy Spirit).

I take it you are speaking of editor-surveyor... I cannot speak for my brother, but I don't see that in what he has said. What he seems to be so zealously arguing is the premise that if one loves YHWH and follows Messiah, then the inward man should desire Torah... That the Spirit, transforming us, will be continuously making us to be like Yeshua, and Yeshua kept Torah. And if you read more closely, Paul does not dispute that view, but rather, endorses it.

I don't think anyone would deny that keeping the Ten Commandments is part of living a holy life - set apart from the WHOLE law of Torah/Moses.

But one cannot 'set apart' any portion of Torah. It cannot be added to, nor taken from... That's the rub.

What I would dispute is the imposing upon Gentile Christians the ceremonial laws the Jews followed and insisting they MUST be followed in order to attain salvation.

But there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Messiah. There is ONE law for all. I would submit that there is only one Torah, and there has always only been one Torah. And the prophets bear that out in the Kingdom prophecies - There will only BE one Torah, and the whole world will keep it... How do we get from here to there?

I have made no demands upon you, or anyone else... My position is more of a 'You don't know what you are missing' thing.

Every word of Torah is prophetic - JUST the Holy Days are so chocked full of meaning that Col2 rightly calls them shadows of good things to come. Even a cursory investigation began to really open my eyes. What is it that they can teach us about what is to come? Moedim (Holy Days) has a connotation of 'rehearsals' for a reason, and most Christians haven't got a single clue about them at all.

The Torah/Law was NEVER intended to impart righteousness but, "law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Gal. 3:24).

I seem to take that far more personally than you do... And it is true - I had no idea how far from the truth I was until I started really studying Torah. Once I really bent to it, I could no longer trust what I had been taught anymore. The Sabbath was the first snare. There is literally *no* defense for moving it to Sunday, which the Roman church in times past and present pointed to as proof of their power and authority...

It is in that way that Torah has taught me the difference between what YHWH says versus the traditions of men. The Torah is there for lawbreakers - To show them the truth, apart from what they have been taught as right by men - It isn't needed for those who don't break the law. Just as the laws of our nation have little impact upon those of us who abide by her laws, So the laws of the Kingdom should not impede those who are the citizens thereof. That, btw, is Paul in a nutshell, and the beatitudes as well, those things against which there is no law...

Additionally, keeping the whole of Torah (the Law of Moses) is not even how believers are sanctified, because that, too, is by faith.

The Torah is not for that purpose. But if we love YHWH we will keep his commandments.

God writes His law upon our hearts and the person who is Christ's WILL live according to the leading of God because, "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph. 2:10)

How is it that the law written on the heart of men is different than Torah? How can it be different? Read the Psalms (especially 119 as posted above), and tell me how the intention could have changed to something altogether different?

736 posted on 06/30/2014 11:31:05 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
But there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Messiah. There is ONE law for all. I would submit that there is only one Torah, and there has always only been one Torah. And the prophets bear that out in the Kingdom prophecies - There will only BE one Torah, and the whole world will keep it... How do we get from here to there?

A good start would be to define what you mean by "Torah" in the first place. Is it the ten commandments given by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai or the six hundred+ laws further spoken of throughout the rest of the Pentateuch? NOWHERE in the New Testament writings are there commands for believers in Christ (Christians) to keep the WHOLE law in order to either gain salvation, keep salvation or maintain a relationship with God. You want to presume that ALL Christians at one time "kept Torah" - though you haven't explained what that means - and that the "Church" through time perverted what God intended for us to know even two thousand years later. I just don't buy it.

A case in point WOULD be the Sabbath. Jesus said the sabbath was made for the man and not man for the Sabbath. It is a day of rest and Paul goes further to explain that this day of rest was something, "Each must be fully convinced in his own mind." (Rom. 14:5) Jesus "kept" Torah because he was a Jew, the Son of God, who fulfilled the law perfectly so that he might make propitiation for the sins of the world.

Jesus said that if we loved him we would keep his commandments, so what are His commandments?:

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." (John 14:21)

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. (I John 3:23-24)

739 posted on 07/01/2014 12:20:14 AM PDT by boatbums (Proud member of the Free Republic Bible Thumpers Brigade.)
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To: roamer_1; boatbums; editor-surveyor; daniel1212; Greetings_Puny_Humans
What he seems to be so zealously arguing is the premise that if one loves YHWH and follows Messiah, then the inward man should desire Torah... That the Spirit, transforming us, will be continuously making us to be like Yeshua, and Yeshua kept Torah.

You're putting the emphasis on following the wrong thing.

It's JESUS we're supposed to follow. Put on Christ.

Yes, Jesus kept the Torah, but that's not what makes us acceptable or right in God's eyes.

So what parts, exactly, of the Torah are we to keep? And why not the whole thing? Why just pick and choose which parts to obey?

The NT message is to fulfill the law of love by which we will obey and fill God's plan for ourselves without even trying.

So tell us, just what happens to the believer if he DOESN'T obey the Torah?

Is he condemned? Go to hell? God's mad at him? Withholds blessings?

Why the emphasis on following the Torah? And how do you do it without the Temple and consecrated priesthood? How do you decide which parts you need to follow and which parts don't need to be followed and on what basis do you make that determination?

746 posted on 07/01/2014 3:53:11 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: roamer_1
The Sabbath was the first snare. There is literally *no* defense for moving it to Sunday, which the Roman church in times past and present pointed to as proof of their power and authority...

The Jewish apostles did not impose the obligation of keeping the sabbath on the Gentiles. By custom and tradition the celebrated the New Covenant sacrifice and resurrection on the first day of the week as something very special, which you call Sunday. They did not move the sixth day to the seventh. Had there been more of Israel that believed our Messiah, had the Zealots not rebelled against Rome, had etc., but that is not what came to pass. By giving Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose, do you doubt his authority to choose to remember the sacrifice and resurrection of our Lord on the first day of the week ?

748 posted on 07/01/2014 4:53:51 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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