Posted on 06/09/2014 9:26:16 PM PDT by Salvation
There is a lot of information here that some Bible readers miss. It was posted for educational purposes.
Thanks for stopping by, and may God bless you throughout the day.
And how did they get those Gospel stories? From person to person communication, right? The Gospels were written from roughly 50 AD through 100 AD.
Christ had ascended into heaven. So with the help of eye-witnesses and the Holy Spirit these Gospels were scribed.
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So, what you are saying is that for some 1500+ years ALL Christians, that is, ALL Catholics were "apostate"?? I guess when Peter went to Rome HE started this "apostate" sin? ALL the vicars of Christ since then are ALL "apostate"? Hmmm.
My, that IS a sweeping generalization and condemnation of BILLIONS of souls over 1500+ years, 15 centuries of condemnation from one FReeper.
a·pos·tate əˈpäsˌtāt,-tit/
1. a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. synonyms: dissenter, defector, deserter, traitor, backslider, turncoat;
2. abandoning a religious or political belief or principle.
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Without these "apostates" there would have been NO Catholic Church for you to condemn 1500 years AFTER the facts.
Catholic priest and theologian German FATHER Martin Luther meant to reform his beloved ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. And the Church DID undergo reforms. It still does reform, like a work in progress. It IS made up of fallible, sinful human beings. Jesus was/is/always will be perfect. We can't be. Neither can Jesus' vicars. Peter sure wasn't; he denied Jesus THREE times.
Father Luther never meant to splinter Jesus' Roman Catholic Church into NOW 30,000+ DIFFERENT "Protestant" denominations.
Well, at least, dartuser, you are staying true to your "protesting" faith, whichever one of the 30,000 different "protesting" one it is.
BTW, I think that these are all useful discussions.
And the Catholic Church has that truth — why don’t you believe the words of Jesus Christ? “And they shall be one.”
This was one of the first articles I read when (re)investigating the Catholic Church. Thank God for Catholic Answers.
To me it seems simple: either Jesus established a visible Church that had teaching authority or he established an invisible one, that has no teaching authority. And if all the churches in the invisible one agree on fundamentals, why aren’t they unified in some visible way?
It’s bootstrapping to say the invisible church groups all agree on what matters. Is bootstrapping because no one has ever told me what these important doctrines are that they all agree upon, and/or which denominations are in, and which ones are out.
Not so simple.
[Jesus said]: “If your brother sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17)And what is this church to which we are to turn? It cannot just be the local congregation with which we agree. This would just be an appeal to ourselves. In the dispute between Luther and Calvin to which church should they have appealed: the Lutheran congregation, the Calvinist congregation? No, the church to which we need to turn must be a visible one endowed with authority from God. Indeed we can see this in action in the Bible itself when a dispute arose among the Christians at Antioch. They did not appeal to themselves but turned to the Apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem. Notice not just the apostles but also to the presbyters that the apostles had already established to assist themselves. Also notice how they worded their response:
This is the letter delivered by them: “The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth: ‘It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us… (Acts 15:23-28)Notice how the apostles joined the the authority of the presbyters to themselves. Notice also that they are invoking the authority of the Holy Spirit in their decision. Their response carries the authority of God himself and is not just the mere opinion of men.
I would also draw your attention to the line:
Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind…The dispute at Antioch arose because there were some who were preaching without the authority of the church, just as the divisions within Christianity arose because the Reformers went out preaching without any mandate from the church. No, the church to which we must turn, as the Jesus himself tells us, must be visible and must posses the authority of God.
As long as Rome is apostate…
And by what authority do you judge Rome as apostate? If it is merely your own private interpretation of Scripture then each to his own and unity among Christians is impossible.
…which it has been from the beginning…
If it is from the beginning then how can you accept what the early church has handed down as Scripture?
Christ had ascended into heaven. So with the help of eye-witnesses and the Holy Spirit these Gospels were scribed.
You're under the mistaken impression that there were only Roman Catholics for the first 1500+ years.
And no, that is not what I am saying. I believe (I know some) that there are genuine Christians among the Roman Catholic religion, just as there are genuine Christians among the Protestant denominations, perhaps even one or two Baptists lol ... but I also know that they did not become Christians by following the ordinances of the RCC, just as the Protestants did not become believers by reciting a prayer when they were 5.
They became believers in Christ by reading, hearing the scriptures and heeding the command to 'repent, believe, call on Him as Lord' ...
My, that IS a sweeping generalization and condemnation of BILLIONS of souls over 1500+ years.
And yet you would have no issue believing all the Jews have been lost since the time of Christ right?
Well, at least, dartuser, you are staying true to your "protesting" faith, whichever one of the 30,000 different "protesting" one it is.
There is only one faith ... as per Ephesians 4.5
If you read the entire context, you will see that the basis for unity here is truth. What truth? Doctrinal truth. Paul is telling us that these 7 truths about doctrine are the foundation that the apostles and prophets taught, that evangelists carry, that pastors and teachers today proclaim.
The purpose, to make us mature in Christ.
Do I believe there are Catholic Christians, yes. Do I believe they will ever become mature in the faith by remaining in the RCC, no.
Yes, but who defines that one faith, the church or dartuser? If there is one faith, can I preach that one faith on a regular basis from a Catholic perspective from the pulpit in your church? If not, by what authority do you or your pastor have to exclude me?
Great point! Bravo!
I’ve read part of this and so far it’s like other Catholic writings I’ve read on the same subject - it misuses Scripture. Scripture is just picked out and twisted to confirm what the Catholic priesthood has said. The Catholic Church (meaning the priesthood) puts itself as God (standing in place of Him) over the ordinary believer. What any Christian should really be looking for is how God Himself in any time or place is working. God doesn’t change, but He works all the time, and work changes things and accomplishes things. So we have to ask things like, what was or is God trying to do here, and what does He mean to be permanent and what temporary, and how long is temporary? etc. And the ultimate authority (not only, but ultimate) is His Word, the Bible. So what was happening when, say, Paul wrote to Timothy? There wasn’t the New Testament, but there was the Word of God, through the disciples (and others) who had lived and walked with Jesus and witnessed His Resurrection. The disciples were also Jews, so Cont’d
Just FYI, you can write as much as you want in one post on FR. It’s not like other forums where you have a maximum character count for each post. (Another reason I like FR).
Ultimate authority — the Bible? No.
But how did the Bible come into being?
From person to person communication.
Old Testament and New Testament alike. The Old Testament wasn’t written down until the exile.
Gospels weren’t written until approximately 50 AD to 100 AD.
They got their information through Holy Tradition — mouth to mouth communication before they wrote it down.
**There wasn’t the New Testament, but there was the Word of God, through the disciples (and others) who had lived and walked with Jesus and witnessed His Resurrection.**
Exactly. Thanks for stopping by and verifying the above thesis.
Proof required.
And where in the Bible does it say that it is the ultimate authority? Not an authority, which Catholics accept, but the ultimate authority. And to whom do we appeal if we disagree on the meaning of the Bible, such as about the Eucharist?
Except, of course, that Mark and Luke did not live and walk with Jesus nor did they witness his Resurrection. Their gospels are accepted as Scripture because the church accepted them. The church came before the written New Testament; belief in the New Testament does not produce the church!
Neither ... God has defined it ... in the scriptures. The scriptures are sufficient for salvation, you do not seem to believe that.
If they are sufficient, I will not look anywhere else to understand what God requires of me.
If, however, I believe the scriptures are NOT sufficient, then I will look somewhere else for that additional truth required for salvation and I will wonder why God bothered to communicate to us through written language if we couldn't read and understand what He was trying to communicate.
Where are the entrance requirements for the kingdom stated? How about Mark 1:14-15, Acts 17:30-31, etc.
14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Seems simple enough ...
can I preach that one faith on a regular basis from a Catholic perspective from the pulpit in your church?
Are you an elder? Have you been vetted through the elder qualifications listed in 1 Tim, 2 Tim, Titus, 1 Pet? And are you in agreement with our doctrinal statement? I suspect that at least some of these would disqualify you (mostly the doctrinal statement).
If not, by what authority do you or your pastor have to exclude me?
The authority of scripture, whereby you do not meet the qualifications listed to be an elder ... and further, you could not in good conscience (as a Catholic) sign our doctrinal statement that declares the scriptures are the sole rule for faith and practice.
Don't take it personally, I doubt your priest would allow me to preach in your church either lol ...
Let us not quibble over the exact number of Protestant denominations. There is clearly division and discord among those who call themselves Protestant. If not there would be no need for the various denominations.
they knew and understood so much about God and the Messiah already. The Bible says they were to be the Lord’s witnesses, and their testimony, along with power given them to do supernatural things like heal and raise the dead wherever they went, would quickly create a church of believers all over that area of the world. The Lord accomplished that through these first believers, who were surrendered to His will. So at that time, they didn’t have the New Testament, but they had the same thing in the disciples themselves, and their understanding of the Old Testament. And while they couldn’t write in detail about every possible situation, they did cover everything. So we see that the church at its beginning didn’t exalt Mary. In all the writings of what Christians are to be concerned with and think about, she doesn’t appear at all, while Catholic meditations on faith tend to turn to her very quickly. And where this has led to is to things like this. Last night on a Catholic radio station (11 p.m. on Relevant Cont’d
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