500 Years of Chaos: Protestantism’s Anniversary

Catholic Analysis ^ | 7 June 2014 | Philipp Rogall

[boatbums]

Thanks. I took what someone meant as an insult and defanged it by owning its positive message! ;o)

[x]

In religion as in politics, sometimes you have to have gone through a shake up, to cut the head off the king (as brutal as that is) in order to have freedom.

It's best when the shake-up is far behind you and you've moved on to better things. Whatever was wrong with the Reformation, we probably wouldn't have the degree of freedom we've had without something like it.

[ealgeone]

You are assuming that whether something is in Scripture, or what it says, it the basis for the veracity of RC teaching, but it is not. Rather, it is based upon the presumed assured infallibility of Rome, which autocratically defines what the past really means.

Then Rome is free to make up whatever it wants. It's circular reasoning. How does the RCC say it's true? Because they've declared it to be true.

The RCC cannot point to one verse to support any of this. They have to rely upon man-made tradition and taking three verses totally out of context.

An interesting word search on tradition reveals 13 places in the NT with the word tradition. Most of these are against using tradition.

The RCC relies upon three verses for their "tradition". But if you look at these in context no where does it support adding new meanings or doctrines to the Bible....which is what the RCC has done.

However, if a word search is done on "it is written" one finds 99 passages in OT and NT that appeal to the written Word.

Jesus extensively quoted from the OT...especially when He was being tempted by Satan. If relying upon the written word is good enough for Christ, it should be good enough for us.

[ealgeone]

Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law; for, seeing that the same God is the author both of the Sacred Books and of the doctrine committed to the Church, it is clearly impossible that any teaching can by legitimate means be extracted from the former, which shall in any respect be at variance with the latter. Hence it follows that all interpretation is foolish and false which...is opposed to the doctrine of the Church(Providentissimus Deus;;

Guess all that part about selling/buying indulgences was ok with Scriture? NOT!

Based on this alone the RCC declares its own teaching to be foolish and false.

[metmom]

If you think that works are going to keep you out of heaven or gain you entrance, you don’t understand grace.

This thread may be of assistance...

Grace is not a Thing
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3166813/posts

[daniel1212]

Then Rome is free to make up whatever it wants. It's circular reasoning. How does the RCC say it's true? Because they've declared it to be true.

Well, even a good liar is limited by what serves credulity, and thus Rome is limited to what traditions she can give a semblance of support for - even if it is not actually seen in Scripture - and i am quite certain that if it were not for those pesky chapter-and-verse Protestants, then Rome would have come up with even more traditions of men, though perhaps not having to resort to the egregious extrapolations often seen in attempting to support them from Scripture, mainly in condescension to evangelicals

“Still, fundamentalists ask, where is the proof from Scripture? Strictly, there is none. It was the Catholic Church that was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly. The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true.” — Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988), p. 275.

[daniel1212]

Guess all that part about selling/buying indulgences was ok with Scripture? NOT!

Well, that example is where you get into what of officially taught versus implicitly sanctioned, as well as what is infallible versus non-binding, both of which is subject to variant interpretation.

But obedience to the pope in some centuries could require torturing and exterminating theological heretics, and in other one's it means holding torture as intrinsically evil, and upholding religious freedom. But some RCs hold that V2 is not binding, and those Prots must submit to the pope to be saved, and other lies.

[ealgeone]

So if we measure these things against scripture and find no support they should be tossed. We are told by Paul if I remember to test every spririt and if it's different than what they taught it is accursed.

this would apply to the RCF

Btw....I think the indulgences were official....if not then silence is acceptance.

[af_vet_1981]

If you think that works are going to keep you out of heaven or gain you entrance, you don’t understand grace.

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

• Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
• And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[metmom]

Those who do not have the righteousness of Christ credited to their account, WILL be judged by their works, just as they want to be.

Problem is, they will ALL go to hell.

God’s standard for entrance into heaven is absolute, total perfection, something mo man or woman can attain. The very fiber of our being is tainted by sin. Everything we do is sin stained. We can do no deeds righteous enough to satisfy God.

That’s why God has to forgive us and give us as a gift by His grace, the righteousness He demands of us.

So then, those of us who have put our faith and trust in Christ to make us righteous, become the righteousness of Christ in God’s eyes, so that even if He were to judge us by our works, we’d get in because God sees Christ’s works as our works and sees us as righteous as His Son.

[ealgeone]

Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law; for, seeing that the same God is the author both of the Sacred Books and of the doctrine committed to the Church, it is clearly impossible that any teaching can by legitimate means be extracted from the former, which shall in any respect be at variance with the latter. Hence it follows that all interpretation is foolish and false which...is opposed to the doctrine of the Church(Providentissimus Deus;;

I noticed you left something out of this. I highlighted it for note:

In the other passages, the analogy of faith should be followed, and Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law; for, seeing that the same God is the author both of the Sacred Books and of the doctrine committed to the Church, it is clearly impossible that any teaching can by legitimate means be extracted from the former, which shall in any respect be at variance with the latter. Hence it follows that all interpretation is foolish and false which either makes the sacred writers disagree one with another, or is opposed to the doctrine of the Church.

It is something I have noted among the RCC as a whole. The RCC has to cherry pick verses and take them out of context to make the verse "fit" their doctrine.

Interestingly, the term sacred writers is not defined so as to leave it open to practically anyone.

In this passage we see the priority of the doctrine of the church over the Bible.

This is how you get indulgences, purgatory, salvation requiring works, the assumption of Mary, etc. If the doctrine says it's ok, it's ok, even though the Bible does not teach on any of these and in most speaks against these false teachings.

This is the reason that we have 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

It is a warning for the verses to come in 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

[daniel1212]

I noticed you left something out of this

That was left out as it was not the issue. That the sacred writers of Scripture do not contradict each other is a given as all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, but that Scripture or tradition cannot contradict Rome is also rejected under the premise that RC doctrine is also inspired of God, and which is based upon the premise that the supreme magisterium of Rome is assuredly infallible, thus her doctrine is trustworthy.

[ealgeone]

I noticed you left something out of this That was left out as it was not the issue. That the sacred writers of Scripture do not contradict each other is a given as all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, but that Scripture or tradition cannot contradict Rome is also rejected under the premise that RC doctrine is also inspired of God, and which is based upon the premise that the supreme magisterium of Rome is assuredly infallible, thus her doctrine is trustworthy.

The buying and selling of indulgences, the assumption of Mary, immaculate conception, icons of mary people "venerate", prayers to Mary, Urban II promises forgiveness of sins for those who died in the Crusades...and now there is discussion within the RCC of Mary as a co-redemtrix being declared dogma.

But wait...why hasn't it happened yet?

In August 1996, a Mariological Congress was held in Czestochowa, Poland, where a commission was established in response to a request of the Holy See. The congress sought the opinion of scholars present there regarding the possibility of proposing a fifth Marian dogma on Mary as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. The commission unanimously declared that it was not opportune, voting 23-0 against the proposed dogma.

When asked in an interview in 2000 whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, (the then) Cardinal Ratzinger responded that,

"the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings...Everything comes from Him, as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way.

Ya think??

Give it a little more time and it will happen. It only took from around the 5th century to 1950 to declare Mary's "assumption" as dogma. BTW, the vote on that one was 1210 in favor out of 1232 bishops.

Question: If the pope is the vicar of Christ, why does he need an opinion poll? Either he is or isn't the vicar of Christ. If he his he doesn't need an opinion poll.

All because the teaching of Rome is superior over the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God.

We have the Word of God as being the only Holy Spirit inspired words. The words of the man-made post of the pope, which is also non-biblical, are not inspired...at least not by Heaven.

[Cronos]

If you read my post, you would see that no one says she contributed to His godhood. However the fact is that she bore a 100% god and 100% man.

[Cronos]

To be honored to carry your savior and creator is what I would call special. Wouldn’t you?

[Cronos]

Cynicalbaer “His godhood and manhood separate” - do you believe them separate entities? Or joined for some time?

[Cronos]

If you read the post above this you will see that some do still believe in this adoptionism

[af_vet_1981]

Those who do not have the righteousness of Christ credited to their account, WILL be judged by their works, just as they want to be. Problem is, they will ALL go to hell. God’s standard for entrance into heaven is absolute, total perfection, something mo man or woman can attain. The very fiber of our being is tainted by sin. Everything we do is sin stained. We can do no deeds righteous enough to satisfy God. That’s why God has to forgive us and give us as a gift by His grace, the righteousness He demands of us. So then, those of us who have put our faith and trust in Christ to make us righteous, become the righteousness of Christ in God’s eyes, so that even if He were to judge us by our works, we’d get in because God sees Christ’s works as our works and sees us as righteous as His Son.

• When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
• He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
• He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
• And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[af_vet_1981]

Those who do not have the righteousness of Christ credited to their account, WILL be judged by their works, just as they want to be. Problem is, they will ALL go to hell. God’s standard for entrance into heaven is absolute, total perfection, something mo man or woman can attain. The very fiber of our being is tainted by sin. Everything we do is sin stained. We can do no deeds righteous enough to satisfy God. That’s why God has to forgive us and give us as a gift by His grace, the righteousness He demands of us. So then, those of us who have put our faith and trust in Christ to make us righteous, become the righteousness of Christ in God’s eyes, so that even if He were to judge us by our works, we’d get in because God sees Christ’s works as our works and sees us as righteous as His Son.

• When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
• He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
• He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
• And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.