How Hitler and Judas could end up in heaven

In certain schools of Christian thought, hell is not everlasting, but a more painful form of purgatory.

M any Christians presume that hell is a place where brutally painful punishments are inflicted on evildoers for an indefinite, and perhaps infinite, amount of time in the afterlife. Think of a medieval torture chamber with no exit — or fire extinguishers.

But this, as I argued in a recent column, makes no theological sense. If morality is good, then doing the right thing must be its own reward and doing the wrong thing must be its own punishment. To think that a sinner deserves extra, externally imposed suffering presumes that morality isn't good and that those who commit evil deeds benefit from their actions — which is another way of saying that those who do the right thing are fools.

The more theologically sound position is to hold that hell is a state of being, whether in this life or the next, in which we confront our own self-imposed alienation from what is truly good — from God, in other words. This educative punishment can be extremely painful, but the pain flows intrinsically from knowledge of our own immoral acts. It isn't inflicted on us by some external tormenter.

Let's just say that my readers weren't universally appreciative of it. A fair number of them apparently want very much to believe that a fairly large number of people are going to be made to suffer egregiously in hell for their bad behavior in life.

I suspect that these same readers, and perhaps many more, will be equally adamant that I'm wrong to follow the implications of my argument a few steps further — to assert that Christians have reason to believe that the punishments of hell, whatever they may be, are temporary for all.

That's right: I think it's likely that if there is an afterlife, everyone — even Judas, even Hitler — eventually ends up in heaven.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to concede that several Gospel passages seem to describe an eternity of damnation for at least some people in the afterlife (Matthew 7:13-14, 25:31-46; Mark 9:45-48; Luke 16:23; John 3:36). Though I'd also like to point out that only in one verse (Matthew 25:46) does Jesus speak of something that could plausibly be translated as "eternal punishment," and in words (aeonios kolasis) that could perhaps more accurately be rendered as "eternal correction."

Then there are those contrary passages that seem to imply that God wants everyone — and perhaps even all of creation — to enjoy salvation (Romans 5:18, 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 28; Philippians 2:10-11; Colossians 1:19-20; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 21:4).

This tension — not to say contradiction — has led some thinkers to dismiss or argue away the implications of the latter passages. Of all the church fathers, Tertullian may have gone furthest in this direction, writing at length and in gory detail about the endless sufferings inflicted on sinners in hell, and even suggesting that observing these torments is an important source of the bliss that accompanies salvation in heaven.

The problem with this position is that it seems to be a form of what Friedrich Nietzsche called "Christian malice": A psychological malady in which the stringent self-denial that Christianity demands of its adherents leads them to feel intense resentment for those who are insufficiently ascetic. Nietzsche delighted in showing how this dynamic can turn Christians from preachers of love into hateful fanatics out to inflict suffering on anyone who dares to enjoy life.

Not all Christians have confirmed Nietzsche's critique as perfectly as Tertullian. Others have been driven by theological reflection to move in the opposite direction — to speculate that all people might eventually enjoy salvation in heaven, no matter how awful their worldly sins may have been.

Origen in the 3rd century and Hans Urs von Balthasar in the 20th both affirmed versions of universal salvation. Yet I find the most compelling variation in the writings of the 4th-century theologian Gregory of Nyssa — a major figure in the history of Christianity, though one more widely revered today by the Eastern Orthodox than by the Western churches.

Gregory maintained that hell resembles something like what Catholics have traditionally called purgatory: A place of sometimes excruciatingly painful purgation of sins in preparation for heaven. The pain is not externally inflicted as punishment, but follows directly from the process of purification as the soul progresses toward a perhaps never fully realized union with divine perfection. Gregory describes this process as a "constant progression" or "stretching forth" (epektasis) of oneself toward an ever greater embrace of and merger with God in the fullness of eternity — a transmutation of what is sinful, fallen, and finite into the transcendent beauty of the infinite.

Hell, in this view, would be the state of agonizing struggle to break free from sin, to renounce our moral mistakes, to habituate ourselves to the good, to become ever more like God. Eastern Orthodox theologians (and, interestingly, Mormons, who hold similar views) call it a process of divination or sanctification (theosis) that follows directly from the doctrine of God's incarnation in Jesus Christ. It is a formula found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, and other ancient theologians: God became a human being so that human beings might become like God.

One imagines that this would be a long, painful process — rendered longer and more painful for those who have fallen furthest from God during their lives. They are the ones for whom the afterlife is truly hellish — like a climb up a peak far, far higher than Mount Everest with little prior preparation or training, no expensive gear, and no Sherpas to help carry the load. But there would eventually be progress toward God, even for the climber who starts out in the worst possible shape, and from the lowest possible point in the valley below.

And at least there would be no dungeon pointlessly presided over by satanic, whip-wielding sadists.

I see it as eternal in that it is an eternal condition.

I find myself, as we have these discussions, sometimes reflecting on the fate of Han Solo in that Star Wars movie where he is “frozen” in that metal contraption and hung on the wall as art. He had no sense of the passage of time and if he had not been saved, his fate would have gone on for a very, very long time.

I’ve gone into surgery twice and put completely under. What it proved to me is that we are aware of the passage of time when we sleep. It’s because it was different when I was put under. I was told to breathe deeply and, mid breath I found myself groggy and in the recovery room, three hours later.

I’ve used this analogy question: If I say I’m going to paint a fence blue for all eternity, do I mean I’m going to spend eternity painting the fence, or do I mean I’m going to paint it blue and it will STAY blue for all eternity.

I think this is what is meant in the bible when discussing the fate of the dead and why the saved are described as having eternal life. Both conditions will be eternal, but one involves life and the other doesn’t. And one of my biggest proofs is that this fits with the personality of my God which is abundantly exposed in nature, my prayer life, the miracles I’ve experienced and His word. And there is plenty of scripture in His word to back it up.

Interestingly, once I finally bothered to study the subject and come to this conclusion that all sources agree, my life was filled with peace that I never had before. God was way too contradictory before that. Too much just didn’t make any sense. And though His ways are above ours, he also teaches that he is not a God of confusion. I am confused no longer - at least on this subject.

I think you may be conflating the physical with the spiritual. Our bodies are mortal, but our souls and spirits are not. “It is appointed unto man once to die; and after this, the judgment.” So while believers may have true eternal life, in glorified bodies, the bodies of the unsaved will not be resurrected - but their spirits will still suffer the torments of hell.

That's claiming that we have eternal life in some form. That we don't really die. That's the lie..."you shall not surely die".

We have physical life only, right now. Our spiritual life happens later:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

It really can't be much plainer. We have no part in immortality without Christ. The only "spirit" we have as non-Christians is that "spirit" that animates these lumps of clay we call "us".

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The breath of God is the spirit of life. When that spirit leaves us, we're lumps of clay again. We die and we rot. There is nothing left in us. We SURELY die. We don't "stay alive" in another form. We aren't immortal. We aren't "gods" that can live forever. Those are Satanic lies. We SURELY die without Christ.

I don’t believe the bible has to be referenced when we speak of God.

Dang! You just pointed out the 800 lb gorilla in the room!

I don’t think Paul referenced it very often. At least, not the NT. ;-)

That statement exhibits a very dire lack of study of the books written by the Apostle Paul, which are chock full of references to the Old Testament.

Brother in Christ, please study Scripture, and by all means please seek the tutelage of better commentators/pastors than you've obviously been exposed to. Seek and ye shall find.

A great starting point is the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Westminster Confession of Faith

The references will display Bible proof text.

Also, biblegateway.com allows you to see the Matthew Henry commentaries under the link "Show Resources".

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:29&version=KJV

I’m a human being. I can have a mind and a body. If I’m on a business trip and a whore throws herself at me, in the reality of what it means to be a human being - I HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE IN MY MIND.

A friend of mine tells me this story:

His softball team flew to Yakima for a tournament. There was one member of the team that was a strong Christian and very much loved his wife.

After the first day, they went to a local sports bar to relax, play some pool and talk about the days events. In the bar was this “smokin’ hot chick” that everyone was oogling - except for this Christian guy. And the girl seemed to thrive on the oogling.

So, what happened? Yep, the Christian guy was her conquest. She slept with him. Maybe her name was Bathsheba, I dunno.

But anyway, they got back to Seattle and deplaned on the tarmac. There were the wives waiting. That guy went straight to his wife and told her what happened and apologized. Yes, she forgave him.

You are right. There is no excuse. But Jesus died for us anyway.

BTW, I’m not seeing your point in the rest of the post. I grant that God trying to explain his full plan to us is like trying to explain the color red to a person that sees only in grayscale. But God made us in His image and he does understand how we think and has exposed His eternity and his plan as well as He desires. Now I see as through a glass darkly, but then fact to face.

I do not know what hell is in the after life but I do have a very good idea of what it is for believers in this life.

Many believers build up their pride in the fact that they are believers, they will say look what I am and look what you are, it gets to the point they can do no wrong..

They get to believing they are something special of their own accord, maybe like Hitler or for that matter many t.v evangelists who we have seen fall.

All kinds of views on eternal punishment and eternal life but we do not know.

Pride comes before the fall and then comes the hell, we can not even point to the place where the pride began or where the fall began but we are in hell.

My post was about the fate of the lost: those who DON”T enjoy eternal life. And my point is that they are simply destroyed, not tortured for linear time neverending. They don’t have eternal life. That is what the bible clearly teaches.

All right... I'll leave aside your apparent "predestination of the damned" belief for the moment, and address your last point: when you say that this is "what the Bible clearly teaches", I simply don't see it. You're injecting your own definition of "life" into the Biblical text, when it obviously means something else.

In order for your statement to be true, you'd have to be taking "life" to mean "conscious existence", and "death" would be "unconscious non-existence"; you take "separation from God" to mean "utter annihiliation". In other words, you're plagiarizing an atheist, materialist definition of "life" to which neither Scripture nor the Church ever confined itself.

Just as a quick example:

And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 2:1-2)

...and:

"[...]remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." (Ephesians 2:12)

Obviously, St. Paul does not mean that the Ephesians were *physically* dead through their trespasses, etc.; he means that they were *spiritually* dead (i.e. without sanctifying grace, oriented toward damnation). They were physically alive, ever while they were separated from Christ; so there should be no talk of "separation from Christ always means annihilation". The second passage is even more explicit, saying that they were not only separated from Christ, but "having no hope and without God in the world"; so "without God" cannot simply be read as "annihilation". There's obviously at least some way (or ways) to be "without God" and still exist... or else the texts simply lie.

Secondly: there's obviously a way to "die" without being annihilated; the blessed (i.e. those who are bound for Heaven) are an obvious example of "dying" physically without annihilation. But (as shown above) there's also a way to "die" and/or "be dead" spiritually, while still not being annihilated. To maintain that "spiritual death" (as referenced in Revelation, etc.) must mean "annihilation" (i.e. ceasing to exist) is simply wrong.

Given that: on what possible basis do you say (apart from personal preference and personal taste) that the damned do not suffer in hell for all eternity, when I (and others) have cited Scripture passages which claim explicitly that they DO?

So, the short answer (just to be absolutely clear) is yes.

It’s impossible to have predestination of the elect, without also having predestination for those who are not in the elect.

And predestination does in no way remove any responsibility of all humans for their own actions.

Because from every human’s perspective - they had every opportunity to choose how they responded to every situation they were ever in.

So, why is the rich man conscious and in torment, needing Lazarus to come and cool his tongue?

It's a parable. If we want to take any aspect of it literally then all of it has to be taken literally. The parable explain how the Jews (the rich man) had it all..the promises of God, the covenants, the commonwealth of faith. And how the gentiles were shut out by the Jewish religion. They were outside the gates of the temple...we're allowed in unless they went through extraordinary measures with the Jewish religious system. The jews gave them scraps, but that was it.

That's not what God intended or put down in scripture.

If we want to use a parable as the literal interpretation of a concept of an idea then the kingdom of God is pearl. A literal pearl. We should go looking for it.

If we want to take the parable of Lazarus and the rich man as literal then we're forced to think that Abraham is God because in the parable Abraham has God like powers. In fact God isn't even mentioned. And if this is literal how could one drop of water on a fingertip assuage any type of suffering? Look at the elements of the parable and apply them to the lesson being taught. It's not a statement about heaven and hell...but like all parables it uses imagery to get across a point.

I’ll leave aside your apparent “predestination of the damned” belief for the moment

I didn’t mention anything about predestination. That is your inference, and an incorrect one. Frankly, there are a LOT of incorrect inferences being made in this thread. Sometimes it’s because I’m not being as clear as I might, wre this a college thesis, but sometimes it’s because peopler reading what they want to read between the lines or so couding my words with their own belief system that, well, again, it’s that between the lines thing.

Now, I make incorrect inferences all the time myself, but I try not to take them as the ipso facto position of the person who’s post I am reading until I ask some clarifying questions first.

I have found that your illustration about general anesthesia also applies to the related discussion about the intermediate state (so called).

The majority of conditionalists accept not only the final annihilation of the lost, but also the complete unconsciousness of all who have died between the moment of their death and that of their resurrection. The unifying idea here is the genuine mortality of the human soul.

Many Christians are horrified at the idea of not being conscious in death. But if that is indeed what happens, then a dead person has no inkling of the passage of time between death and resurrection. Hundreds of years (or more) would seem like just a moment in their experience (like anesthesia).

Now, this belief does rob us of the idea that loved ones are currently in heaven being blessed, but it does help us to recognize the wonderful blessing that the resurrection of the redeemed will be when it happens. And the dead know nothing, plus we can trust God to remember all who are His!

Could it be that speculation about the intermediate state, which no one in the Bible has ever described to us, by the way, is precarious because there really isn't one?

RE: The Rich man and Lazarus

Is it a parable?

First, the story is never called a parable. Many other of Jesus’ stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7).

Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of persons — Abraham and Lazarus

Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

And even, for arguments sake, if it is a parable, surely it is a picture of what happens to people who are like the rich man...

The important thing is that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a “real” story, it is realistic. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.

So, what happened? Yep, the Christian guy was her conquest. She slept with him. Maybe her name was Bathsheba, I dunno.

But anyway, they got back to Seattle and deplaned on the tarmac. There were the wives waiting. That guy went straight to his wife and told her what happened and apologized. Yes, she forgave him.

Oh, brother. The two valid reasons for divorce are adultery and abandonment ! So-called professing Christians are far too often tricked by false pastors into leading lives completely against what the Bible teaches. Toleration of adultery in conservative Reformed Churches is almost nil. Toleration of adultery in so many other denominations is rampant. Most professing Christians are taught a false gospel.

address your last point: when you say that this is “what the Bible clearly teaches”, I simply don’t see it. -———————————————
Ok, you are responding to my comment about the lost “...They don’t have eternal life. That is what the bible clearly teaches.”

Look up the words death, destruction, perish in the NT and focus on where they are justaposed with “eternal life” or “life eternal”. Likewise, look up the two “life” phrases and notice, when they are compared to the fate of someone NOT receiving it, what the fate of the person not receiving it is.

Really, it’s very clear - until you compare them with scriptures that, on the surface, appear to contradict them.

But even then the point is missed because our understanding of who God is is not limited to scripture. It is also in prayer and our personal relationship with Him. The older I get, the more incredible it is to me that He answers prayer for such an unworthy person. Praise be to Him! I understand what Paul was feeling when he lamented about the same thing, though I think it was much stronger for him.

And it is the prayer and personal relationship with Him that cements my belief about the fate of the lost.

BTW, not to dilute this too much, but when viewing sites where people are overtly antagonistic to Christianity, they almost always attack Christianity on the hell thing. Interestingly, when I remove that aspect from God they don’t even know how to attack. They’ve been stripped of their primary weapon against Christianity and the reallly vehement ones start attacking things that actually ARE a part of bible teaching, and come across as fools in the process.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.