FALLING AWAY FROM GOD'S GRACE

http://www.aconqueringfaith.net/2014/05/falling-away-from-gods-grace.html ^

[Kackikat]

I am well aware of the scriptures. My answer was specific to the one person who declared all Christians could never lose their Salvation, which is not true according to Hebrews Ch 6: vs 1—7...that conversation has been completed.

Thanks for contributing anyway.

[Kackikat]

That scripture although true... is irrelevant to the former discussion. Why take things out of context to be divisive or argumenative, it isn’t my Word but God s. I only corrected a false statement with God’s word, enough said.

[Hoodat]

You want a verse that says "HAS everlasting life"?

No.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>You must examine “who” Hebrews Ch 6: verses 1-7 is referring to, it isn’t just a Christian, it’s those who are SPIRIT FILLED...and yes, Christians are, but not as ministers who operate in the laying on of hands and operating in the gifts of the Spirit.<<<

I have suspected something like that for a long time. The evidence of every day life is convincing enough: we haven't seen anyone move any mountains lately. But the internal evidence from the scriptures: that the early Christians possessed powers not seen since those days, is a clear indicator that there are (or were) two "types," if you will, of Christians. I place them in the category of the "elect" vs the "non-elect." I'll explain . . .

Joel indicated there were two ways to salvation: 1) be called by the Lord; and 2) call upon the name of the Lord:

    "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)

I believe the remnant that Joel mentioned--at least those whom the Lord called--were the elect. Isaiah wrote along similar lines:

    "Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." (Isa 65:8-9 KJV)

Note that the Lord said he would not destroy all of Israel, but would leave an inheritor (a single seed, Christ,) and his elect. Paul also wrote along similar lines, but he called those who were saved the "remnant," rather than the "elect:"

    "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Rom 9:27-29 KJV)

Paul indicated later that the remnant and the elect are the same:

    "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Rom 11:4-5 KJV)

The single seed--the inheritor, as aforementioned, was Christ:

    "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Paul explained, in general terms, the salvation and purpose of the elect, (of which he was one,) as follows:

    "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph 1:4-5 KJV)

And he explained the salvation of the non-elect in this manner:

    "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Rom 10:13-15 KJV)

We know that at least some of the elect (maybe all) received the miracle powers of the Holy Ghost on or shortly after the Day of Pentecost. Those were also the ones who were called by Christ to established, or help establish, the early church. Those who came afterward, Jews and Gentiles alike, called upon the name of the Lord in order to be saved.

Those who came first--the elect--received special powers, and therefore much more was expected of them. Thus, Hebrews 6:4-6

Philip

[SADMILLIE]

Do you understand the word “shall” ? do you think there is ambiguity there?

[boatbums]

Agreed! When Jesus said no one could take us out of His hands, He obviously meant even ourselves. He also said He would cast out or “lose” not a one of us. So, if He stated no one can pluck us from His hands and He would NOT cast anyone out who came to Him nor lose anyone, that sure sounds like salvation is in HIS hands and He is holding onto us, not us holding onto Him.

[boatbums]

I am well aware of the scriptures. My answer was specific to the one person who declared all Christians could never lose their Salvation, which is not true according to Hebrews Ch 6: vs 1—7...that conversation has been completed. Thanks for contributing anyway.

I happen to agree with the one who declared no Christian could lose their salvation - it is pretty clear in Scripture that it is a function of grace. If you are "well aware" of the Scriptures, then why do you seem to be denying them? What Hebrews chapter 6 says can be explained BY other Scripture and we should not make a rookie mistake of interpreting a single, not-so-clear verse without using OTHER passages to help explain it correctly.

BTW...I think you owe Eagleone an apology for how you responded. He was nothing but respectful towards you.

[boatbums]

You want a verse that says "HAS everlasting life"?

No.

Why? Are you afraid it might contradict a narrative you have already believed? The only way to be sure we know what Scripture means is by looking at OTHER Scriptures. Scripture interprets Scripture. We also have the indwelling Holy Spirit who illuminates the truth to our hearts and helps us understand the deeper truths of God.

[boatbums]

Do you understand the word “shall” ? do you think there is ambiguity there?

Yes, I understand the word. It's meaning, however, depends upon its context. When Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (John 10:9), the way it is used in the Greek indicates a surety such as "will be", "will go". I know there are some who hedge their bets, in a sense, and try to interpret verses like these to say "shall be" can also imply "shall be, but might not be" or that it says "may be saved" but "might not be" as well. I don't get that sense from these passages because I know there ARE other verses that plainly say "HAS" and "WILL" and they, in turn, make the doubtful verses not ambiguous at all.

[narses]

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “

[Seven_0]

And let me be clear, I am not promoting a sin-all-you-want.

The operative word here is "want." If a person wants to sin it is really academic whether or not they actually sin. The trick is to get to the point where you don't want to sin, then you will sin even more that you want to sin.

[Salvation]

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[Hoodat]

Why? Are you afraid it might contradict a narrative you have already believed?

No, I am not afraid. It doesn't contradict any narrative I have. I was only commenting on John 3:16 because it doesn't say 'has' as another poster claimed.

.

The only way to be sure we know what Scripture means is by looking at OTHER Scriptures.

That's really not necessary in this case. The words are self-explanatory. They don't take anything away from any other scriptures. They simply did not say what another poster claimed. That's all.

.

We also have the indwelling Holy Spirit who illuminates the truth to our hearts and helps us understand the deeper truths of God.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

[dsc]

How about a little Douay?

3:16. For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

So, what does that “may” mean? Might? Has permission to? Can aspire to?

[dsc]

“As sheep sometimes go astray from the flock, so Christians can quit listening to the voice of the great Shepherd and go the path of destruction.”

It’s a fact, Jack.

[dsc]

From the Douay:

6:4. For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

6:5. Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,

6:6. And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

*It is impossible, etc . . . The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

[kevao]

A “saved” person can obviously fall away beyond redemption, else the Scriptures wouldn’t have mentioned it. The question to ask is, How can one lose his salvation?

By sinning? Certainly not! — 1 John 1:9, as you mentioned.

So if not by sinning, then how?

Well, Jesus did say there was one unpardonable sin — blasphemy against the Spirit (see Matthew 12:31-32 and Luke 12:10).

What is blasphemy? Blasphemy means defiant irreverence or cursing God or degrading Him. Even relating evil to God.

How does a “saved” person do this? Well, it’s pretty hard. You have to make a deliberate decision that, despite all you know about God, you want nothing more to do with Him. You need to prayerfully, or more likely with clenched fists raised against Him, tell God to get out of your life once and for all. Say, *I REJECT YOU!*

Hard to imagine even the most backslidden person doing that. But if anyone can ever get to that point, then the impossibility of their redemption (Heb 6:4-6) isn’t hard to fathom at all.

Bottom line: You can’t lose your salvation by sinning. Not even by sinning a whole lot. To lose your salvation, you have to really *want* to, making a deliberate decision to reject God and tell Him to get out of your life for good.

The tl;dr version is: Anyone who is worried about it, hasn’t lost his salvation, else he wouldn’t be worried about it.

Hope this helps.

[Gamecock]

So is this refutung “once save, always saved” or Calvinism?

It can be one or the other, not both.
Calvinists Do not hold to OSAS, therefore the author has lost ALL credibility.

[Cvengr]

Heb 6:4-6 is one of the few passages where the meanings are much better understood after a verse-by-verse, word study from the Greek.

Similar to parables, those who fall out of fellowship thinking the passage indicates we can lose our salvation, will not understand the passage anyway. Those who remain in faith, will grow even more from the passage.

The passage provides sound doctrine upon which to understand efficacious grace.

[verga]

The only way to be sure we know what Scripture means is by looking at OTHER Scriptures. Scripture interprets Scripture.

This is the truest thing you have ever said. Now could you explain to my how the "This is my" is different or metaphorical between "This is My Son" and "This is My Body" and "This is my blood"

I am including the Greek and the English for you:

Matthew 3:17 - NAS – and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased

Matthew 3:17 - WH – και ιδου (5640) φωνη εκ των ουρανων λεγουσα (5723) ουτος εστιν (5719) ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν ω ευδοκησα (5656)

Matthew 17:5 - NAS – While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased listen to Him!"

Matthew 17:5 - WH – ετι αυτου λαλουντος (5723) ιδου (5640) νεφελη φωτεινη επεσκιασεν (5656) αυτους και ιδου (5640) φωνη εκ της νεφελης λεγουσα (5723) ουτος εστιν (5719) ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν ω ευδοκησα (5656) ακουετε (5720) αυτου

Matthew 26:26 - NAS – While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."

Matthew 26:26 - WH – εσθιοντων (5723) δε αυτων λαβων (5631) ο ιησους αρτον και ευλογησας (5660) εκλασεν (5656) και δους (5631) τοις μαθηταις ειπεν (5627) λαβετε (5628) φαγετε (5628) τουτο εστιν (5719) το σωμα μου

Matthew 26:28 - NAS – for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:28 - WH – τουτο γαρ εστιν (5719) το αιμα μου της διαθηκης το περι πολλων εκχυννομενον (5746) εις αφεσιν αμαρτιων

Mark 9:7 - NAS – Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"

Mark 9:7 - WH – και εγενετο (5633) νεφελη επισκιαζουσα (5723) αυτοις και εγενετο (5633) φωνη εκ της νεφελης ουτος εστιν (5719) ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος ακουετε (5720) αυτου

Mark 14:22 - NAS – While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body."

Mark 14:22 - WH – και εσθιοντων (5723) αυτων λαβων (5631) αρτον ευλογησας (5660) εκλασεν (5656) και εδωκεν (5656) αυτοις και ειπεν (5627) λαβετε (5628) τουτο εστιν (5719) το σωμα μου

Mark 14:24 - NAS – And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Mark 14:24 - WH – και ειπεν (5627) αυτοις τουτο εστιν (5719) το αιμα μου της διαθηκης το εκχυννομενον (5746) υπερ πολλων

Luke 9:35 - NAS – Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Luke 9:35 - WH – και φωνη εγενετο (5633) εκ της νεφελης λεγουσα (5723) ουτος εστιν (5719) ο υιος μου ο εκλελεγμενος (5772) αυτου ακουετε (5720)

Luke 22:19 - NAS – And when He had taken some bread and given thanks He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

Luke 22:19 - WH – και λαβων (5631) αρτον ευχαριστησας (5660) εκλασεν (5656) και εδωκεν (5656) αυτοις λεγων (5723) τουτο εστιν (5719) το σωμα μου {Variant #1: [[το } {Variant #2: το } υπερ υμων διδομενον (5746) τουτο ποιειτε (5720) εις την εμην αναμνησιν

Luke 22:20 - NAS – And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Luke 22:20 - WH – και το ποτηριον ωσαυτως μετα το δειπνησαι (5658) λεγων (5723) τουτο το ποτηριον η καινη διαθηκη εν τω αιματι μου το υπερ υμων {Variant #1: εκχυννομενον]] (5746) } {Variant #2: εκχυννομενον (5746) }

I will be awaiting your illuminating exposition with baited breath.