Posted on 05/26/2014 7:44:27 PM PDT by discipler
When it comes to the topic of if a Christian can fall from God's grace, the "once saved, always saved" people bring up the sheep example. Very oddly, they miss something.
Jesus said, "28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." John 10:28f. Jesus also said earlier, "11 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me," John 10:11ff.
What do the Calvinistic "perseverence of the saints" folks miss in these verses?
What they miss is two things, 1] the wolves can and are destroying sheep, and 2] sheep sometimes stray from the good shepherd. The prodigal son had a good father and yet he was able to leave. While we faithful have great security in Christ, when we are weak in faith and when we listen to the false teachers, we can be led astray and lose our salvation.
Romans 8:37-39 is a good passage to show that external things cannot separate us from the love of God. That equates with great security for our salvation in Christ. So don't lose heart. But a rebellious Christian can depart from God. As sheep sometimes go astray from the flock, so Christians can quit listening to the voice of the great Shepherd and go the path of destruction. Said in love, Discipler
Nope. Dead wrong. Roman 8:1. “there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus” and John 3:16 “He who believes that Jesus is the Son of God has everlasting life” You are just reading what you want so you can get money from the confused.
No where in the Bible does it ever say we are unsealed or that we can unseal ourselves.
From a Biblical teaching your salvation is secure.
“What they miss is two things, 1] the wolves can and are destroying sheep,”
Here is where you are pushing the analogy too far. It breaks down as you try to make it not apply to eternal security.
“and 2] sheep sometimes stray from the good shepherd. The prodigal son had a good father and yet he was able to leave.”
Exactly. He was able to stray. He was always a son.
“While we faithful have great security in Christ, when we are weak in faith and when we listen to the false teachers, we can be led astray and lose our salvation.”
The only false teaching I see in this thread is your opening post... but even that cannot steal a believer from the hand of God.
However, I've seen too much scripture that shows that one can walk away from their Salvation. Judas walked away from it, and when confronted with his sin killed himself rather than ask forgiveness. On the other hand, Peter denied Jesus three times yet came back to Christ in repentance.
In the Epistles, Demas walked away from Christ when he deserted Paul.
To summarize, I wouldn't place my eternal destiny in a Confession and Dunking I got when I was 12.
Does not Ephesians 1:13 say:
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
That seal, afforded only to the believers, cannot be broken. Not even by the believer. Those that rebel to the extent you describe I would question their belief in the first place.
Ping. Falling from Grace means getting away from Grace as a means of Salvation which is what the Galatians were doing.
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
You’re right.
Jesus said to the disciples “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.”
John 15:4
You are not rightly dividing the Word.
Jesus warns the disciples themselves about losing their salvation.
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away”
John 15:1-2
Agreed. Good post.
**However, I’ve seen too much scripture that shows that one can walk away from their Salvation.**
That’s right. The five foolish virgins had their lamps lit, but they didn’t ‘keep the faith’. They didn’t make sure they had enough oil to make it.
The seed that fell on the ground that had thorns and thistles, and the ground that had little depth of earth, both sprouted to life, but didn’t endure.
All seven churches (souls already born again) in Revelation had this command directed at them: “he that over cometh....”.
The little word “if” found all over in the epistles.
It is enough for one to "work out your own salvation" and try and bring as many people with you along the way.
We are all scattered seed. If you are in fertile ground you will grow and bare fruit. It is by our fruit that we will be known.
God deals with believers; “Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.” Chastisement can be even to death.
Hebrews 12: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
For my own part, I confess that, if it could any
how be, I should be unwilling to have Freewill
given to me, or any thing left in my own hand,
which might enable me to endeavour after salva
tion :
not only because in the midst of so many
dangers and adversities on the one hand, and of
so many assaulting devils on the other, I should
not be strong enough to maintain my standing
and keep my hold of it (for one devil is mightier
than all men put together, and not a single indi
vidual of mankind would be saved) ;
but because,
if there were even no dangers, and no adversities,
and no devils, still I should be compelled to toil
for ever as uncertainly, and to fight as one that
beateth the air.
v For, though 1 should live and
work to eternity, my own conscience would never
be sure and secure how much she ought to do,
that God might be satisfied with her. Do what
she might, there would still be left an anxious
doubt, whether it pleased God, or whether he
required any thing more; ...Martin Luther, Bondage of the will
“No where in the Bible does it ever say we are unsealed or that we can unseal ourselves”
Wrong...
Hebrews Chapter 6: 4-7
READ IT..IT IS CLEAR.
Now granted it is speaking of those who have been operating in the nine gifts of the spirit as in ministry, who have basically “intentionally thrown away salvation in pursuit of earthly pleasures”....but it does mean a person can lose their salvation at certain point in Christian Maturity by choice.
That's not what John 3:16 says. It says 'should have' - not 'has'. Big difference.
“...”once saved, always saved”. As a matter of fact, if I found out that was correct all along when I get to heaven...”
As I read your comments, I have one question...why are you so sure that you will ‘get to Heaven...’?
That being said, I have a problem with ‘alter calls’. I have seen many respond because someone else has, or because they want to be one of ‘us’...however we are. And then they go out for the church, lite up the cigarette, go home and polish off a six-pack, swear at the TV ‘cause their team is losing...etc...you know what I mean. Was their ‘conversion’ real? Time will tell, but I hope that somewhere in the course of their life here on earth they really ‘get knocked off their horse, blinded’ and really know that they have had a face to face with Yeshua.
For those who have had that experience, in what ever way they have it, but a deep personal experience, I believe that ‘no one can separate us’, not even me.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:10-11
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