Posted on 05/26/2014 7:44:27 PM PDT by discipler
When it comes to the topic of if a Christian can fall from God's grace, the "once saved, always saved" people bring up the sheep example. Very oddly, they miss something.
Jesus said, "28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." John 10:28f. Jesus also said earlier, "11 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me," John 10:11ff.
What do the Calvinistic "perseverence of the saints" folks miss in these verses?
What they miss is two things, 1] the wolves can and are destroying sheep, and 2] sheep sometimes stray from the good shepherd. The prodigal son had a good father and yet he was able to leave. While we faithful have great security in Christ, when we are weak in faith and when we listen to the false teachers, we can be led astray and lose our salvation.
Romans 8:37-39 is a good passage to show that external things cannot separate us from the love of God. That equates with great security for our salvation in Christ. So don't lose heart. But a rebellious Christian can depart from God. As sheep sometimes go astray from the flock, so Christians can quit listening to the voice of the great Shepherd and go the path of destruction. Said in love, Discipler
Hebrews says nothing about becoming unsealed by the Holy Spirit.
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
The Catch-22 of OSAS.
I disagree as this would contradict a substantial portion of the New Testament teaching on the security of the believer. We have to be careful with one verse theology.
I witnessed numerous Christians depart the faith while we were in Turkey, being seduced into believing that Allah was God and they actually renounced Jesus as only a prophet, not the Son of God. Can a True believer really depart from the faith? At age 65, I’d have to say that I think you can take YOURSELF away from God, but no one else can. You CAN decide to stop believing. I have seen this. I know that ONLY GOD knows for sure, in the long run, but it seems to me that those who choose to later repent of their belief in God will likely not be among the saints.
It is sad to watch as some grow cold in their faith and begin to become deliberately hostile to those who remained in their faith. I’ve witnessed that, also. Those who end in faith are the true believers. Those who remain faithful to the end. While one may stray for a while, if one repents and turns back to faith, God forgives. If one forsakes the faith and does not repent, then I’d say that it is quite likely they may not be among the saints who gain the first resurrection. The teaching of salvation appears to hold somewhat to both views, which is called an antinome. Two opposing views, both having validity. When we get to Heaven, I guess we’ll understand it all, but for now it is one of the mysteries of the faith. I feel that God leaves it unsolved for us for now because it keeps us wondering a little so we don’t get too cocky and self-assured. So, we should NOT be beating one another up over this. The main thing to remember is that our faith is not of our own works, but the saving grace God extends to us through the death of His Son, and His resurrection. His work on the cross, not our goodness. The ground is level at the foot of the cross, where we all must come and repent.
We should be encouraging one another in the faith, not looking for ways to disagree and condemn one another. We are going to need one another in the days ahead. We are going to need to be ready to give shelter and support. It worries me to read some of the comments about believers in other countries that seem t have a little different form of worship, or traditions. We MUST set these aside, we MUST pray for each one (ourselves included) to be filled with God’s spirit and His Truth, to love one another in such a way that the world does not see our differences but our love of each other that can only be contributed to God’s power working in us.
“You are just reading what you want so you can get money from the confused.”
I think we need to be careful in our accusations towards one another. To say that someone is trying to make gain on their beliefs or lord it over others is inflammatory. If you know this to be a fact, that is one thing, but to just say something like this to make someone look bad reminds me of the left, who instead of being able to really argue their points resorts to insults and accusations. We don’t want to parrot the left. State your case, but do it in love, remembering that it is God’s grace alone that ANY of us have anything, and we are all at different places in our growth and understanding. Be gracious towards one another.
And you need to study and reflect on 2 Tim 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
I would caution you not to diminish the finished work of Christ. We will pray for you.
As for Romans 8, I know the chapter intimately. It is hands down far and away the greatest chapter in the entire Bible. Verse 9 says that we are positionally perfect. Verses 18-22 reveal God's purpose behind salvation. Verses 31-39 reveal the love of God. And verse 37 tells us who we are.
Yet it is very possible for us to walk away from this. Paul warns us against grieving the Holy Spirit by whom we were sealed for the day of redemption. Because if we do, we may find ourselves subject to the consequence of the unforgivable sin and one that we would not have confessed much less repented for when that day of redemption comes.
I get the point about God's infallibility. But we as humans are fully capable of forfeiting a gift we had at one time accepted. As for 2 Timothy 2:15, my translation begins with 'be diligent'. If OSAS is true, there would be no need for being diligent. In fact, all of 2 Timothy 2 would be a waste since there is no legitimate reason for godliness once a person gets saved. In fact, one could discard the entire New Testament save for a few verses if it was impossible to forfeit salvation. Jesus entire gospel of the kingdom of heaven would be pointless as well since the kingdom represents the restoration of our souls (among other things) after our spirit has been renewed. Yet the OSAS doctrine gives no account of the process we endure after we accept Christ and His Spirit as a foundation for living.
And in no way am I diminishing anything concerning the finished work of Christ. But I would remind you that Covenant is a two-way street. If the finished work of Christ was all it took, then everyone would already be saved.
I will leave you with this:
I have always wondered about the "once saved, always saved" doctrine, primarily because of verses like these:
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6 KJV)
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:38-39 KJV)
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (2Th 2:3 KJV)
"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (2Pet 3:17 KJV)
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Rev 3:5 KJV)
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev 22:19 KJV)
Philip
Then what would you say to the likes of Stalin? At one time he was a seminarian, which argues very strongly he was saved.
Personally, I feel that one can tell from a person’s actions whether or not they are saved.
BLFR
If you could loose eternal life ... it's not eternal.
Great point.
When faced with those who believe we can lose our salvation, I’ve found a couple of points worthwhile to communicate.
1) God knows everything in eternity future from eternity past. When He gave salvation to each believer, He wasn’t having a senior’s moment and went, DOH!!!!, I forgot about that sin.....
2) The very act of thinking we can lose our salvation ONLY happens if we are NOT thinking through faith in what Christ performed on the Cross. Our salvation is based upon our faith/believing in Him and what He provided on the Cross,...He was judged for ALL our sin. (If this isn’t understood, consider it a test,....try it though not needed, those who believe we can lose salvation are already out of fellowship, so it can be pointed out to them for them to consider it, to wake up and return back to faith in Christ.)
3) The issue being confused is salvation and fellowship. Once we are saved, we have been forgiven our sins. If we sin again, we can return to Him by facing back to Him, remembering what He Provided on the Cross and confess those sins to Him. He is sure and just to forgive those sins and we are back in fellowship.
4) When we sin, we simply fall out of fellowship. We are not condemned again. Our goal is to return to fellowship, so we might follow the Plan He has made for us from eternity past. It isn’t the believer’s goal to constantly accuse. That is the thinking pattern of the Adversary.
Try this.
Focus on your thinking,...the object of your thinking, when in fellowship with Christ and what He Provided at the Cross,...compared to say,...when you think about a sin you’ve committed before you’ve confessed it to God through faith in what Christ provided.
Now consider how we think, if we are out of fellowship, in the context of the verses you posted. They don’t point to loss of salvation, rather they point out how we should be thinking and when we aren’t how God is thinking.
IMHO, the most challenging task for God was to communicate to fallen man, who lacked the faculty to spiritually perceive with a regenerated human spirit. Think about it. How do we evangelize to those who have no clue or perception what the spirit means. They have no means to identify the object in their thinking. The natural tendency is to treat anything spiritual as foolishness.
The sealed believers are different. They have a regenerated spirit. We can still sin and fall out of fellowship. God recognizes this and realizes we have volition which He made in us. When we step away from Him by our volition, it’s something He doesn’t control because He made that volition for us to exercise. Even though He recognizes we fall away, and He remains in His integrity, sound in His nature, our actions thereby cause him Grief. That’s why when we sin or fall out of fellowship, it is also called, “Grieving the Holy Spirit”.
So many arguments appealing to guilt/obedience, simply remain out of fellowship with His Plan. We do feel guilty when we recognize we have fallen out of fellowship, but that is part of why He has provided a mechanism for post-salvation sin to be forgiven, namely through faith in what Christ Provided on the Cross and our confession of it to Him. He returns us to fellowship because He loves us.
There are all sorts of charlatans and wicked people who PROFESS Christ but are wolves in sheep’s clothing, liars.
Many people may think such people are saved, but they “never knew” God.
They are simply liars.
The final accounting is when you can no longer repent for your sins and get right with God.
That’s when you die.
At THAT point, one’s record is final.
Stalin is clearly not saved, no matter if he went to Church, was a choirboy, or whatever.
It was all for nought.
Even if everyone and his aunt Tillie was fooled by him.
Some of the most heinous acts in all history have been committed by believers out of fellowship with God.
BTW, this is a feature which Satan also hates in us. Neither can he control us when we sin. We might be rebelling from God, but the Adversary can’t forgive,...it’s not in his nature.
Maybe we can rephrase that a little bit to better convey the meaning.
The object in God's Plan is to glorify the Son, ..it's not all about us.
If we find ourselves out of fellowship, but God the Holy Spirit still indwells us. ...but for some reason we refuse to return to Him,...this places God in an awkward position, because He does nothing that is "good for nothingness".
This implies the Holy Spirit is not going to remain in us if He can't perform anything good in us. So if we are no longer in a state of any potential good by His Plan from eternity past, we are simply taken home is what is called the "sin unto death".
He may have other mechanisms available to Him, but His Integrity remains sound. If we are sealed, we remain sealed.
He might treat us like little spoiled kids. We might have fallen out of fellowship,...refuse to return to Him, ...even after He disciplines and punishes us,...and if we continue to throw tantrums, His hand isn't cornered to perform our selfish volition. He might simply ignore us or place us off to the side.
He might use us to prove other points to all of Creation as a witness and they might not be complementary of our behavior.
Remember, good and evil have not been resolved in the same fashion sin has been settled at the Cross.
Also remember from the Garden,...man ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and because of it we would surely die. More believers are separated from God by good and evil, than legalism. We easily confuse good and evil with obedient fellowship and sin. They aren't the same.
His law is “written on the hearts” of men.
People internally know when they’re opposing God.
Some tell themselves they’re not and perhaps convince themselves, sort of.
Some people will hide their sin and lie to cover up. “What I’m doing is ok”. “I didn’t do that”.
Some unsaved profess Christ - they are liars, wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Some people revel their sin and do not cover it up.
On the other hand,
One who is saved feels an overpowering feeling of needing to get right with God; to repent. They will come to be repulsed by their own sin, and thus come back to God repenting.
Of course, those who are saved will see progressive sanctification in their lives.
They’ll want to study the Word of God, they’ll want to be obedient to Christ. They’ll have trials and setbacks, but they’ll persevere through to the end in their lives.
They’ll realize and admit that it’s nothing for them to boast of, what they’ve done and said well in their life, they give the glory to God for these things.
Good post.
When is the law written into the hearts of man? Is it at salvation or is it part of sanctification or is it future Millennial Kingdom?
I know for the Jews, it’s future Millennial. I was under the impression it is part of our continuing sanctification process, but I need to restudy this point.
NKJV
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