Posted on 05/14/2014 10:02:57 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
Jesus blasted the traditions of the Pharisees and was often quoted as saying.....*It is written....*
He said that Scripture bore witness to Him.
Looks like HE depended on Scripture alone. He never appealed to anything outside Scripture to validate anything about Himself.
No, Elsie, he can’t be talking about you.
He said *HERself*.
“Strange logic you have...”
No, not at all since Luther is the father of your Protestant religion.
All Catholics come under the authority of the Pope. All are abiding to the magisterium. Now please dont reply back and tell me about some rebel Catholic group that has been chastised by the Church.
There is no such thing as the Protestant Church, therefore it is impossible to have any type of unity. All the different protestant denominations are right. Just ask them. A few will even “marry” Tom and Dick if Tom and Dick want to get “married”. And the “pastor” “marrying” them will be a lesbian, with her “wife/husband” sitting in the front role. The baptist church down the road doesn’t think that’s right. The episcopal church could care less. Hell of a unity you have there.
“Purty good fer someone NOT ‘devine’!”
St. Peter’s shadow was apparently thought to have healing power. What of it? Jesus - Who is God - was born of a woman. What of it? God can do some pretty amazing things through mortal human beings.
Oh, but Jesus didn’t write a thing, but Paul did, here’s a few things Saint Paul said about Tradition.
Before turning to St. Paul, let us review what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine wellspring, come together in fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal” (no. 80). It goes on to say: “And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching” (no. 81).
Now, we can turn our attention to what St. Paul wrote. St. Paul mentions tradition several times in his epistles, reminding both Timothy and the Thessalonians to stand fast to the traditions he taught them. In his Second Letter to Timothy, Paul wrote: “Take as a model of sound teaching what you have heard me say, in faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the rich deposit of faith with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (1:13-14). Later, in the same letter, he further instructs Timothy, “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2:1-2). It seems clear that the apostolic Tradition, the oral teaching of the apostles, was to be preserved and transmitted from generation to generation. St. Paul doesn’t write to Timothy and say, “This is all you need for salvation”; rather, he writes Timothy to entrust to other faithful men, who will be able to instruct others, what he preached, and Timothy heard, before many witnesses.
In the Second Letter to the Thessalonians, St. Paul is just as explicit: “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2:15). Either by word of mouth or letter.
Were the brethren to stand firm and hold the oral Tradition that St. Paul taught only for that one generation? Did the Holy Spirit tire and decide to safeguard the transmission of only the written record of Jesus’ and the apostles’ teachings? Obviously not!
The sermon is historical, the quote IS taken out of context. Only Bill Clinton-type personalities can dispute that without busting out laughing. If you want to discuss some other Luther quote, that's another story. He certainly said and wrote much, most of which a Catholic wouldn't agree. But an honest man has to concede that quote is out of context.
He also wanted to throw out the Letter of Saint James, and even perhaps Hebrews, but his cohort talked him out of it. Was that taken out of context as well.
He translated all of the Bible. His view on Hebrews and James wasn't a lone voice nor was it an original criticism as the following shows.
She backs her arguments from Scripture. But then you argue with Luther as well, a Doctor of the Catholic church, translator of the Bible. Fluent in Greek Hebrew, Latin German an author of much. So it really doesn't matter what any theologian says if it differs from what the Catholic church has told you or what you believe it has told you. You fail to argue successfully from the only thing that doesn't change; God's Word.
Do you think there will ever come a time on the FR Religion Forum that Roman Catholics stop using that vapid and easily proven false “statistic”???
Not to mention it is all over the place!
On day it is 50,000, the next 28,000.
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (II Peter 1:3-21)
xone:
I am well aware that the entire NT was not formally defined until the late 4th century at the various Synods and Councils of the Church, along with Pope Innocents Letter starting with Rome 382, Hippo 393, Carthage 397, Pope Innocent’s Letter to the Bishops of Gaul in 405AD. The Canons defined there include 46OT books and 27 NT. There was another Council in 419 in Carthage to reinforce certain teachings, of course, the Council states that its Canons should be sent to Rome for confirmation and it again lists the 46OT and 27 NT canon that was confirmed earlier.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm
So all Luther is acknowledging is that the NT canon was not settled in the early 4th century [as attested by Eusebius around 320 to 330] and what it also shows is it was in fact the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that definitively defined the NT canon, which is precisely what this entire darn thread is about.
So, I am glad you quoted Luther and linked that article, it only reinforces that I and other Catholics in this thread have been stating. So Luther’s statement that he received the Sacred Scriptures [as defined by early Councils and Popes] from Rome is an accurate statement but it also seems he questioned whether they got it right. Well, that is not surprising, it wasn’t the only thing he questioned. His doctrine on Justification was the novelty and of course when he couldn’t find that the Fathers agreed with him, even Saint Augustine, he claimed they all erred in matters of doctrine and explaining the scriptures and that he had discovered the orthodox Gospel understanding.
Back to the NT, he also didn’t care much for the Gospels of MT, MK, and Luke, and felt John was the only 1 that was equivalent to the Letter of Romans.
So again, thanks for that link, as know I don’t have to be charged with taking Luther out of context.
“Doctor of the Catholic church”
He absolutely is not!
You see what I mean about you ignoring posts you can’t
refute?
****************
Now, we can turn our attention to what St. Paul wrote. St. Paul mentions tradition several times in his epistles, reminding both Timothy and the Thessalonians to stand fast to the traditions he taught them. In his Second Letter to Timothy, Paul wrote: “Take as a model of sound teaching what you have heard me say, in faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the rich deposit of faith with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (1:13-14). Later, in the same letter, he further instructs Timothy, “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2:1-2). It seems clear that the apostolic Tradition, the oral teaching of the apostles, was to be preserved and transmitted from generation to generation. St. Paul doesn’t write to Timothy and say, “This is all you need for salvation”; rather, he writes Timothy to entrust to other faithful men, who will be able to instruct others, what he preached, and Timothy heard, before many witnesses.
In the Second Letter to the Thessalonians, St. Paul is just as explicit: “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2:15). Either by word of mouth or letter.
Were the brethren to stand firm and hold the oral Tradition that St. Paul taught only for that one generation? Did the Holy Spirit tire and decide to safeguard the transmission of only the written record of Jesus’ and the apostles’ teachings? Obviously not!
The Church Is One
John 17:11
Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.
John 17:21
... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
Eph 4:4 - 5
There is one body and one Spirit just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all.
1 Cor 10:17
Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
John 10:16
(Jesus said) “there shall be one flock, one shepherd.”
“Do you think there will ever come a time on the FR Religion Forum that Roman Catholics stop using that vapid and easily proven false “statistic”???””
In short, no.
It continues to grow each year. Next year it will move from 50,000 to 100,000!
Best just to laugh.
“The Church Is One”
I agree the Church is one. I disagree that it is the Roman Church.
I read it as comprised of one universal Church that is also the Body of Christ and His Bride. It’s members are every believer of all time who entrusted themselves to Christ’s sacrifice alone for salvation, rejecting their dead works.
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