Posted on 04/20/2014 12:50:38 PM PDT by Gamecock
The perennial question in the debate over sola Scriptura is whether the church is over the Bible or the Bible is over the church. If you take the latter position, then you are (generally speaking) a Protestant who believes the Scriptures, and the Scriptures alone, are the only infallible rule and therefore the supreme authority over the church. But, here is the irony: Roman Catholics also claim to be “under” the authority of the Bible.
The Roman Catholic church insists that the Scripture is always superior to the Magisterium. Dei Verbum declares, “This teaching office is not above the Word of God, but serves it” (2.10), and the Catholic Catechism declares: “Yet, this Magisterium is not superior to the word of God, but its servant” (86). However, despite these qualifications, one still wonders how Scripture can be deemed the ultimate authority if the Magisterium is able to define, determine, and interpret the Scripture in the first place. Moreover, the Magisterium seems to “discover” doctrines that are not consistent with the original meaning of Scripture itself—e.g,, the immaculate conception, purgatory, papal infallibility and the like. Thus, despite these declarations from Rome, residual concerns remain about whether the Magisterium functionally has authority over the Scriptures.
My friend and colleague James Anderson has written a helpful blog post that brings even further clarity to this issue. He begins by observing the judicial activism that happens all too often in the American political system. Judges go well beyond the original intent of the constitution and actually create new laws from the bench. He then argues:
What has happened in the US system of government almost exactly parallels what happened in the government of the Christian church over the course of many centuries, a development that finds its fullest expression in the Roman Catholic Church.
The Bible serves as the constitution of the Christian faith. It is the covenant documentation. It defines the Christian church: what constitutes the church, what is its mission, who runs the church and how it should be run, what are the responsibilities of the church, what is the scope of its authority, what laws govern the church and its members, and so forth. Once the constitution has been written, the task of the ‘judges’ (the elders/overseers of the church) is to interpret and apply it according to its original intent. Their task is not to create new laws or to come up with “interpretations” that cannot be found in the text of the constitution itself (interpreted according to original intent) and would never have crossed the minds of the “founding fathers” (Eph. 2:20).
Yet that’s just what happened over the course of time with the development of episcopacy, the rise of the papacy, and the increasing weight given to church tradition. To borrow Grudem’s phrasing: If the Bible didn’t say something something that the bishops wanted it to say, or thought it should say, they could claim to “discover” new doctrines in the Bible — purgatory, indulgences, apostolic succession, papal infallibility, etc. — and no one would have power to overrule them.
Adapting the candid statement of Chief Justice Hughes, today’s Roman Catholic might well put it thus: “We are under the Bible, but the Bible is what the Pope says it is.” In fact, that’s exactly how things stand in practice. Functionally the Pope has become the highest governing authority in his church: higher even than the Bible. The church has been derailed by “ecclesial activism”.
Thus, even though Rome claims that the Bible is its ultimate authority, practically speaking it is the church that is the ultimate authority. Rome is committed to sola ecclesia. And this clarifies the real difference between Protestants and Catholics. Something has to be the ultimate authority. It is either Scripture or the church.
“And you’re happy with this?”
Since that doesn’t actually happen my happiness or lack thereof can’t be gauged.
“From your posts and those of your co-religionists it is obvious to all that no Catholic anywhere gives a fig what any rural American redneck thinks about anything.”
Oh, now you’re thinking? I said I your feelings don’t concern me. They don’t. Learn the difference between feelings and thinking before you attack my view of either. Also, since I have no clue where you live and couldn’t care less where you do live or whether or not you call yourself a “redneck” my posts don’t indicate anything in regard to where you are or what you consider yourself to be.
“So much for being “universal.””
The faith is. Perhaps I’m just more provincial or discriminating.
Is the Holy Eucharist the Real Presence of Christ.
Did Christ tell Peter: “Whatsoever YOU loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. Whatsoever YOU bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”?
All you do is skip by what I comment on and ask more irrelevant questions.
I the beginning was the WORD, and the word was with GOD, and the word WAS God.
Is God over the church or vice versa? Easy question to answer. Next.
Because your position amounts to each individual being their own pope.
You pretend that without any frame of reference each individual can just “be open to the Holy Spirit” and will instantly be guided to the truth from Scripture, as you stated in post 162.
I submit that if that were true, we would not see such divergent understandings of the meaning of various Scripture passages, or in the overarching themes.
I chose the subjects previously cited because in each case you have some Protestant churches on agreeing with Catholics and other Protestant churches disagreeing.
And lastly, it seems that you would meet that objection by noting the need to set the church aside and rely on private revelation, as though a consensus would appear.
We agree that Christ established His "church", His body, bride, called-out assembly, and that it most certainly IS one. That "one", however, is NOT the Roman Catholic Church. It goes much deeper and broader than that. Jesus prayed that we would be one, and we are - His prayers will always be answered yes. What some, obviously, need to realize is that this ONE body is already that way in God's eyes. What binds us as ONE is the faith in Jesus Christ - not the various and sundry, imagined and developed doctrines that various and sundry assembly leaders thought up over the centuries.
Your mistake is in not thinking like God does and getting distracted by numbers - not that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have its own issues with numbers of rites, disagreements with "core" tenets and renegade factions. Our Christian faith is based upon the doctrines taught in sacred Scripture. It is the divinely revealed word of God, so why wouldn't it be the basis? Just as the early church leaders taught and defended the rule of faith by using God's word, so also must all those who came after and, if they cannot prove by Scripture the professed doctrines, then they should be reproved and NOT accepted as teachings from God. Why on earth would someone think God would reveal something privately that contradicted His divine word? Yet, the Roman Catholic faith does so on many points - some so grievous that they caused numerous schisms among believers and sowed dissension and division. For all the hoopla about "we are the true church", you guys sure do have a spotty record on how you have conducted yourselves in God's name. These are the reasons why millions have left and joined to others assemblies who worship God in spirit and truth.
I don't deny that there are many within the Roman Catholic religion that ARE part of the one body of Christ - at least I sure HOPE so. It is because their faith is in Christ and not in their church. NO church can save someone. It is only by grace through faith that anyone can be.
“In the end, the Anglican appeal to a three-legged stool relies on individual interpretation, just as the Protestant appeals to sola scriptura. The three-legged stool turns out to be a theological pogo stick”.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/how-do-we-know-it%E2%80%99s-the-true-church
Vlad . . . calm down. I share your rejection of both sola scriptura and Protestantism and I get just as frustrated as you do. But your reference to Protestants (and not just "rednecks" or "fundamentalists" but Protestants as a group, which would seem to include all those liberal mainline denominations with which the Catholic Church loves to huddle and ecumenicize.
What I'm saying is that your question "Are Protestants stupid?" was a gratuitous insult that had nothing to do with your argument. It looks like you let your feelings get out of control that time.
When possible, make theological arguments (as hard as that is to do sometimes when the other person's assumptions are never questioned).
I'm not your enemy. I'm sorry that some of your co-religionists have been banned over the past two years because their religion was too universal and objective and not "American" enough. But gratuitous and utterly uncalled-for insults aimed at American Protestants--and especially its conservative Fundamentalist subset--are not only useless but damaging to your cause.
And Catholics STILL haven’t learned from history what happens when one takes the credit and glory due God.
Maybe if they were more familiar with the Scripture they claim to have given the world, they wouldn’t be so quick to look for their spot in the sun.
Then there are areas which are called *disputable matters*
God does not demand lockstep adherence to church doctrine. Just because two people disagree with some point of doctrine does not mean one of them is lying or that one or both of them are not being led by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:1-23 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
They do teach that she is co-redeemer.
Most Catholics will, of course, deny this, but the following is right out of the Catechism of the Catholic church.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”510
Names of God from the Bible. Compare them to the names given to Mary in the above prayer.
Jesus
Hope (our) - 1 Timothy 1:1
Counselor - Isaiah 9:6
Advocate - 1 John 2:1
Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 12:24
Holy Spirit
Comforter - John 14:26
Helper – John 14:16
There is this from the CCC as well. Whoever wrote this is talking out of both sides of their mouth because the bolded part shows that they indeed consider her co-redeemer even while they deny in the first part that they are calling her that.
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source. "512
daniel1212 also posted this in a thread concerning that title.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3055274/posts?page=113#113
For real? She was redeemed *just like the rest of us*? And then you go on to claim she was conceived without sin?
On what planet is that being redeemed *just like the rest of us*? Because nobody I know was ever conceived without sin.
All OT believers were redeemed by their anticipation of Christ's death. That's nothing new or special to Mary.
And Scripture also tells us that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ALL is ALL. It doesn't say *All but Mary.*
Mary had sin and needed a savior, by her own admission. If she indeed never had sinned as Catholicism teaches, then she didn't need a savior, in which case, she would have been lying in calling God her savior, which would have made her a sinner.
So do you and others here.
Baloney. No church can forgive sins. Only God can do that.
28 Years ago several Nuns helped me and my then girlfriend now wife through a very rough time where some very major decisions were made and had to be made in a short time frame. She was more or less under their literal protection in a hospital. One Nun IIRC was a black belt LOL.
One Nun helped me when emotionally and mentally I had about reached the end of my rope. Too many things happened in too short a time frame and most of it catastrophic in nature except for a woman I had met after loosing my wife and a bond that soon formed between us.
Her stay in that hospital was three months. he Nun discerned between an abusive ex spouse, a sadist father of my girlfriend, and me. On our wedding day her dad went off on my girlfriend. The Nun heard him and her step mom cursing her and hung up the phone. She told my girlfriend don't listen to them.. Not that he cared, he didn't. He was going to put her away and the kids in an orphanage. Same thing he tried to do to her as a toddler. We found out later how sick in the head he really was.
Her ex? A real piece of work who left her to raise the kids for a girl his daughters age and his daughter was not old enough to drive yet. He was abusive and part of the reason for the hospital stay although he had let two years earlier. Ones spine especially near the neck can only take so many blows.
When I speak of The Holy Spirit I do not speak lightly. About the sixth day into being told her arms would never come away from her chest two preachers she knew laid on hands for healing. What happened next is hard to describe. A peace unlike one I have known of this world came over me. One I have not experienced since and with it a message given me in a way I have not had since. The message as if a voice was "It's going to be OK". Meaning this is to be I am with you.
I told her but for a few weeks told no one else. Now some could mistake it as hey she's going to get up and walk. No that wasn't the message at all. After that my emotions shut down for a day or so. I told her I needed to go and think. I made it about three miles and came back only not to her room. I was outside the Chapel and an elderly Nun said step into my office a few minutes. She asked me what was going on and I told her. She said it's normal you'll be OK in a few days go rest. I did and a day or two later I was ok an in a better frame of mind.
We had discussed marriage maybe a year off before this hit her. But events started unfolding at a fast pace. The kids dad was unfit. Her dad was unfit. She had no other family. I knew in my heart before this happened I loved her. Her stay three months there. In the second month a few days before Thanksgiving we were married in the Chapel. The guest besides her kids and my parents? The Nuns and the Chaplain a Priest. We were married by her preacher who knew the full circumstances of her previous marriage.
Sometimes there are no easy answers. We must pray and act in faith. Why was I told what I was told? Because it strengthen me at a lowest point in my life. GOD had a plan for us. That plan had begun to fall into place months before when my first wife suddenly passed one morning. Why GOD why was the question for a couple of months. GOD had a plan. After returning to work after her death I took a transfer to where my future wife worked and that is where we met.
We began eating lunch together and going to movies taking the kids. I was with her the last steps she took before collapsing in a local mall and as she was describing her transition from this existence to the next one while we were racing under police escort to the hospital.
I know "It's going to be OK". The first year was hard. But it made both of us grow much closer to The Lord and realize how much we needed Him. It changed lives for the better. Ours, the kids, and others. Fives years into our marriage I had an urgency put on me to study The Bible. About four years later I developed my own disability which robs me of the ability to often times concentrate and produces seizure type activity in my shoulder blades and neck. This is why sometimes my posting is not quite readable. This is sensory triggered It won't kill me but there is no cure either. Just medication to take to done down my sensory system. But Thank GOD it left me physically strong. This in turn made me more dependent on my wife and she became in part my caregiver as well.
People can become legalistic to a point to where they would not hear The Lord trying to lead them if He were shouting. But our years together have been a blessing from GOD. He certainly knew our futures and He certainly put us together at the exact right time almost down to the literal minutes.
I think a person should unless lead by The Holy Spirit to do otherwise should stay in the church where they were called. Christians wasted far too much time trying to convert other Christians and I've been guilty of that a lot myself.
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