Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[Gamecock]

Full Title: Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Roman Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

In the field of Reformation studies, Professor Brad Gregory is somebody for whom I have immense respect.  Those outside the discipline of history are possibly unaware of the ravages which postmodernism brought in its wake, making all narratives negotiable and fuelling a rise in interest in all manner of trivia and marginal weirdness.  Dr. Gregory is trained in both philosophy and history and has done much to place the self-understanding of human agents back at the centre of historical analysis.  Thus, for those of us interested in the Reformation, he has also played an important role in placing religion back into the discussion.  For that, I and many others owe him a great debt of gratitude.

I therefore find myself in the odd and uncomfortable position of writing a very critical review of his latest book, The Unintended Reformation (Belknap Harvard, 2011). The book itself is undoubtedly well-written and deeply learned, with nearly a third of the text devoted to endnotes.  It is brilliant in its scope and execution, addressing issues of philosophy, politics and economics.  Anyone wanting a panoramic view of the individuals, the institutions and the forces which shaped early modern Europe should read this work. Yet for all of its brilliance, the book does not demonstrate its central thesis, that Protestantism must shoulder most of the responsibility for the various things which Dr. Gregory dislikes about modern Western society, from its exaltation of the scientific paradigm to its consumerism to its secular view of knowledge and even to global warming. I am sympathetic with many of Dr. Gregory's gripes about the world of today; but in naming Protestantism as the primary culprit he engages in a rather arbitrary blame game.

Dr. Gregory's book contains arguments about both metaphysics and what we might call empirical social realities. On the grounds that debates about metaphysics, like games of chess, can be great fun for the participants but less than thrilling for the spectators, I will post my thoughts on that aspect of the book in a separate blog entry. In this article, I will focus on the Papacy, persecution and the role of the printing press.  This piece is more of a medieval jousting tournament than a chess game and will, I trust, provide the audience with better spectator sport.

One final preliminary comment: I am confident that my previous writings on Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics indicate that I am no reincarnation of a nineteenth century 'No popery!' rabble-rouser. I have always tried to write with respect and forbearance on such matters, to the extent that I have even been berated at times by other, hotter sorts of Protestants for being too pacific. In what follows, however, I am deliberately combative.  This is not because I wish to show disrespect to Dr. Gregory or to his Church or to his beliefs; but he has set the tone by writing a very combative book. I like that. I like writers who believe and care about the big questions of life. But here is the rub: those who write in such a way must allow those who respond to them to believe with equal passion in their chosen cause and to care about it deeply and thus to be equally combative in their rejoinders.

A key part of the book's argument is the apparent anarchy created by the Protestant emphasis on the perspicuity of scripture. In this, Dr. Gregory stands with his Notre Dame colleague, Christian Smith, as seeing this as perhaps the single weakest point of Protestantism. He also rejects any attempt to restrict Protestantism to the major confessional traditions (Reformed, Anglican and Lutheran) as he argues that such a restriction would create an artificial delimitation of Protestant diversity. Instead, he insists on also including those groups which scholars typically call radical reformers (essentially all other non-Roman Christian sects which have their origins in the turn to scripture of the Reformation). This creates a very diverse and indeed chaotic picture of Protestantism such that no unifying doctrinal synthesis is possible as a means of categorizing the whole.  

I wonder if I am alone in finding the more stridently confident comments of some Roman Catholics over the issue of perspicuity to be somewhat tiresome and rather overblown. Perspicuity was, after all, a response to a position that had proved to be a failure: the Papacy.  Thus, to criticize it while proposing nothing better than a return to that which had proved so inadequate is scarcely a compelling argument.

Yes, it is true that Protestant interpretive diversity is an empirical fact; but when it comes to selectivity in historical reading as a means of creating a false impression of stability, Roman Catholic approaches to the Papacy provide some excellent examples of such fallacious method.  The ability to ignore or simply dismiss as irrelevant the empirical facts of papal history is quite an impressive feat of historical and theological selectivity. Thus, as all sides need to face empirical facts and the challenges they raise, here are a few we might want to consider, along with what seem to me (as a Protestant outsider) to be the usual Roman Catholic responses:

Empirical fact: The Papacy as an authoritative institution was not there in the early centuries. 

Never mind.  Put together a doctrine of development whereby Christians - or at least some of them, those of whom we choose to approve in retrospect on the grounds we agree with what they say  - eventually come to see the Pope as uniquely authoritative.  

Empirical fact: The Papacy was corrupt in the later Middle Ages, building its power and status on political antics, forged documents and other similar scams. 

Ignore it, excuse it as a momentary aberration and perhaps, if pressed, even offer a quick apology. Then move swiftly on to assure everyone it is all sorted out now and start talking about John Paul II or Benedict XVI.  Whatever you do, there is no need to allow this fact to have any significance for how one understands the theory of papal power in the abstract or in the present.  

Empirical fact: The Papacy was in such a mess at the beginning of the fifteenth century that it needed a council to decide who of the multiple claimants to Peter's seat was the legitimate pope.  

Again, this was merely a momentary aberration but it has no significance for the understanding of papal authority.  After all, it was so long ago and so far away.

Empirical fact: The church failed (once again) to put its administrative, pastoral, moral and doctrinal house in order at the Fifth Lateran Council at the start of the sixteenth century.  

Forget it.  Emphasise instead the vibrant piety of the late medieval church and then blame the ungodly Protestants for their inexplicable protests and thus for the collapse of the medieval social, political and theological structure of Europe.  

Perhaps it is somewhat aggressive to pose these points in such a blunt form. Again, I intend no disrespect but am simply responding with the same forthrightness with which certain writers speak of Protestantism. The problem here is that the context for the Reformation - the failure of the papal system to reform itself, a failure in itself lethal to notions of papal power and authority - seems to have been forgotten in all of the recent aggressive attacks on scriptural perspicuity.  These are all empirical facts and they are all routinely excused, dismissed or simply ignored by Roman Catholic writers. Perspicuity was not the original problem; it was intended as the answer.   One can believe it to be an incorrect, incoherent, inadequate answer; but then one must come up with something better - not simply act as if shouting the original problem louder will make everything all right. Such an approach to history and theology is what I call the Emerald City protocol: when defending the great and powerful Oz, one must simply pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.  

Given the above empirical facts, the medieval Papacy surely has chronological priority over any of the alleged shortcomings of scriptural perspicuity in the history of abject ecclesiastical and theological disasters. To be fair, Dr. Gregory does acknowledge that 'medieval Christendom' was a failure (p. 365) but in choosing such a term he sidesteps the significance of the events of the late medieval period for papal authority. The failure of medieval Christendom was the failure of the Papacy. To say medieval Christendom failed but then to allow such a statement no real ecclesiastical significance is merely an act of throat-clearing before going after the people, the Protestants, who frankly are in the crosshairs simply because it appears one finds them and their sects distasteful. Again, to be fair, one cannot blame Roman Catholics for disliking Protestants: our very existence bears testimony to Roman Catholicism's failure. But that Roman Catholics who know their history apparently believe the Papacy now works just fine seems as arbitrary and selective a theological and historical move as any confessionally driven restriction of what is and is not legitimate Protestantism.  

As Dr. Gregory brings his narrative up to the present, I will do the same. There are things which can be conveniently ignored by North American Roman Catholic intellectuals because they take place in distant lands. Yet many of these are emblematic of contemporary Roman Catholicism in the wider world. Such, for example, are the bits of the real cross and vials of Jesus' blood which continue to be displayed in certain churches, the cult of Padre Pio and the relics of Anthony of Padua and the like (both of whom edged out Jesus and the Virgin Mary in a poll as to who was the most prayed to figure in Italian Catholicism). We Protestants may appear hopelessly confused to the latest generation of North American Roman Catholic polemicists, but at least my own little group of Presbyterian schismatics does not promote the veneration of mountebank stigmatics or the virtues of snake-oil.

Still, for the sake of argument let us accept the fideistic notion that the events of the later Middle Ages do not shatter the theology underlying the Papacy.  What therefore of Roman Catholic theological unity and papal authority today? That is not too rosy either, I am afraid.  The Roman Catholic Church's teaching on birth control is routinely ignored by vast swathes of the laity with absolute impunity; Roman Catholic politicians have been in the vanguard of liberalizing abortion laws and yet still been welcome at Mass and at high table with church dignitaries; leading theologians cannot agree on exactly what papal infallibility means; and there is not even consensus on the meaning and significance of Vatican II relative to previous church teaching. Such a Church is as chaotic and anarchic as anything Protestantism has thrown up. 

Further, if Dr. Gregory wants to include as part of his general concept of Protestantism any and all sixteenth century lunatics who ever claimed the Bible alone as sole authority and thence to draw conclusions about the plausibility of the perspicuity of scripture, then it seems reasonable to insist in response that discussions of Roman Catholicism include not simply the Newmans, Ratzingers and Wotjylas but also the Kungs, Rahners, Schillebeeckxs and the journalists at the National Catholic Reporter.  And why stop there?  We should also throw in the sedevacantists and Lefebvrists for good measure.  They all claim to be good Roman Catholics and find their unity around the Office of the Pope, after all. Let us not exclude them on the dubious grounds that they do not support our own preconceived conclusions of how papal authority should work.  At least Protestantism has the integrity to wear its chaotic divisions on its sleeve.

Moving on from the issue of authority, we find that Dr. Gregory also argues that religious persecution is a poisonous result of the confessionalisation of Europe into warring religious factions. Certainly, the bloodshed along confessional lines in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was terrible, but doctrinal disagreements did not begin with the Reformation. The New Testament makes it clear that serious doctrinal conflict existed within the church even during apostolic times (I hope I am allowed, for the sake of argument, to assume that the New Testament is perspicuous enough for me to state that with a degree of confidence); and the link between church and state which provided the context for bloodshed over matters of theological deviancy was established from at least the time of Priscillian in the late fourth century. It was hardly a Protestant or even a Reformation innovation.

When it comes to the empirical facts of Catholic persecution, Dr. Gregory only mentions the Inquisition twice. That is remarkably light coverage given its rather stellar track record in all that embarrassing auto da fe business. Moreover, he mentions it first only in a Reformation/post-Reformation context. Yet Roman Catholic persecution of those considered deviants was not simply or even primarily a response to Reformation Protestantism but a well-established pattern in the Middle Ages. No doubt the Spanish Jews and Muslims, the Cathars, the Albigensians, the Lollards, the Hussites and many other religious deviants living before the establishment of any Protestant state might have wished that their sufferings had received a more substantial role in the narrative and more significance in the general thesis. Sure, Protestantism broke the Roman Catholic monopoly on persecution and thus played a shameful and ignominious part in its escalation; but it did not establish the precedents, legally, culturally or practically.

Finally, the great lacuna in this book is the printing press. Dr. Gregory has, as I noted above, done brilliant work in putting self-understanding back on the historical agenda and thus of grounding the history of ideas in historical realities rather than metaphysical abstractions. The danger with this, however, is that material factors can come to be somewhat neglected. His thesis - that Protestantism shattered the unified nature and coherence of knowledge and paved the way for its secularization - does not take into account the impact of the easy availability of print. The printed book changed everything: it fuelled literacy rates and it expanded the potential for diversity of opinion. I suspect there is a very plausible alternative, or at least supplementary, narrative to the 'Protestantism shattered the unified nature and coherence of knowledge' thesis: the printing press did it because it made impossible the Church's control of the nature, range, flow and availability of knowledge.

Ironically, the printing press is one of the great success stories of pre-Reformation Catholic Europe. One might argue that it was a technological innovation and thus not particularly 'Catholic' in that sense. That is true; but for some years after it was invented it was unclear whether it would be successful enough to replace medieval book production. In fact, its success was significantly helped by the brisk fifteenth century trade in printed breviaries and missals and the indulgences produced to fund war against the Ottomans. In other words, it was the vibrancy of late medieval Catholic piety, of which Dr. Gregory makes much, that ensured the future of the printing press and thereby the shipwrecking of the old, stable forms of knowledge.

The Roman Catholic Church knew the danger presented by the easy transmission of, and access to, knowledge which the printing press provided. That is why it was so assiduous in burning books in the sixteenth century and why the Index of Prohibited Books remained in place until the 1960s. I well remember being amazed when reading the autobiography of the analytic philosopher and one-time priest, Sir Anthony Kenny, that he had had to obtain special permission from the Church to read David Hume for his doctoral research in the 1950s. At the start of the twenty-first century, Rome may present herself as the friend of engaged religious intellectuals in North America but she took an embarrassingly long time even to allow her people free access to the most basic books of modern Western thought. Women in Britain had the vote, Elvis (in my humble opinion) had already done his best work and The Beatles and The Rolling Stones were starting to churn out hits before Roman Catholics were free to read David Hume without specific permission from the Church.   

Of course, Dr. Gregory knows about the Index; but he seems to see it as a response to Protestantism, not as an extension of the Church's typical manner of handling deviation from its central tenets and practices which stretched back well before the Reformation. And therein lies the ironic, tragic, perplexing flaw of this brilliant and learned book: Dr. Gregory sets out to prove that Protestantism is the source of all, or at least many, of the modern world's ills; but what he actually does is demonstrate in painstaking and compelling detail that medieval Catholicism and the Papacy with which it was inextricably bound up were ultimately inadequate to the task which they set - which they claimed! - for themselves.  Reformation Protestantism, if I can use the singular, was one response to this failure, as conciliarism had been a hundred years before.  One can dispute the adequacy of such responses; but only by an act of historical denial can one dispute the fact that it was the Papacy which failed.

Thanks to the death of medieval Christendom and to the havoc caused by the Reformation and beyond, Dr Gregory is today free to believe (or not) that Protestantism is an utter failure.  Thanks to the printing press, he is also free to express this in a public form. Thanks to the modern world which grew as a response to the failure of Roman Catholicism, he is also free to choose his own solution to the problems of modernity without fear of rack or rope. Yet, having said all that, I for one find it strange indeed that someone would choose as the solution that which was actually the problem in the first place.

[Elsie]

The sentence above was NOT written by a talking ass.

>/I>

Numbers 22:28
And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

[Elsie]

For example, before the Fall Adam and Eve were in grace.

More facts assumed - not found on the evidence table.

They were created SINLESS; something that CAN be shown from Scripture.

[daniel1212]

Wonderful. So next time someone thinks he defeated the Catholic doctrine by "'purgatory' is not in the scripture" or "where is praying to saints in the scripture" or "where is the word 'catholic' in the scripture" you will be with me explaining such primitive and legalistic approach to be without merit?

Quite the contrary, as you are missing the critical difference btwn the helpful consideration of what was been written and formulated as doctrine, and examining the warrant for such as noble Bereans would, versus hold such writings as themselves assuredly determining what Scripture says.

Next question: does "the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. (John 14:26) say that the Church will continue to be inspired by the Holy Ghost to the extent that whatever is on the mind of the Church is as good as if Christ is saying it? Or is it the case where a Protestant must reach somewhere in the "traditions" of Luther and the rest of the charlatans to avoid taking this scripture as written?

A false premise and a false dilemma. Your premise is that John 14:26 means a perpetual assuredly infallible magisterium is promised, presumably as necessary for progressive revelation and understanding and preservation of Truth, neither of which is the case in Scripture, versus writings being established as Scripture and the assured revealed word of God, and thus being the supreme standard for obedience, and for testing and establishing Truth claims thereby

Secondly, one need not look to Luther and company to see the fallacy of your premise, upon which basis you hold that all who deny this error are charlatans.

What is your basis for assurance that Rome is the one true and infallible church that you see Jn. 14:26 promising?

It would seem that in essence you hold that being the historical instrument and steward of Scripture, which Rome claims to be, means such are the assuredly infallible determiners and interpreters of Truth.

Great again; as I like to point out, "faith is what we do".

But which is denied when Rome's actions speak louder than her words to the contrary.

So again, when someone tells me that "baptism does not save because to baptize is to work", or that "good works do not save because it is like purchasing salvation" you will see through the cheap illusion that these "objections" construct?

I see thru both the illusion that the act itself effects regeneration and formal justification based on interior goodness, even if done by an atheist on a soul that is without moral cognizance, as well as the premise that if any response by man is involved in conversion then it constitutes works.

Conversion has God "purifying the hearts by faith," (Acts 17:9) but even believing is a volitional act, not done in a coma, yet it is both motivated and enabled by God. (Jn. 6:44; 12:32; Acts 11:18; 16:14) The soul does what he otherwise would not and could not do. And in confessing that there is essentially no difference btwn moving one's neurons and tongue to confess faith in the crucified and risen Divine Lord Jesus of Scripture, and moving one's legs to do so in baptism.

However, neither the volitional faith response and confession of faith merits salvation, but it is faith in the heart that man believes unto righteousness, so that even a immobilized mute can be saved on his death bed, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the unGodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5; cf. Titus 3:5) But works of faith justify one as having such faith. (Heb. 6:9)

[LurkingSince'98]

“I’ve been told, by a Catholic, to ignore the following...”

bad cut and past kimosabe - what I did post is that the Fair Use Exemption allows excerpting from the copyright.

The bottom of the Scripture I quoted states:

Excerpts from the Lectionary for Mass for Use in the Dioceses of the United States of America, second typical edition © 2001, 1998, 1997, 1986, 1970 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Inc., Washington, DC. Used with permission. All rights reserved. No portion of this text may be reproduced by any means without permission in writing from the copyright owner.

Be advised that any and all posts that I or any other Catholics make from the Lectionary published by the CCD are exempt from permissions under:

1) The Fair Use Exemption as stated several times, and

2) under the following CCD permissions:

One-time print use

No written permission is required for one-time use.

The official liturgical text must be followed. All excerpts must be verbatim from the text, including capitalization and punctuation. The poetic structure of those readings written in verse (for example, Psalms, Wisdom, Isaiah, etc.) must be preserved in verse as printed.

The appropriate acknowledgment must be printed either beneath the reading(s) or with the other acknowledgments:

“Excerpts from the Lectionary for Mass for Use in the Dioceses of the United States of America, second typical edition © 2001, 1998, 1997, 1986, 1970 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Inc., Washington, DC. Used with permission. All rights reserved. No portion of this text may be reproduced by any means without permission in writing from the copyright owner.”

Web and other digital Media Usage

No permission or fee is needed to display the daily readings on a website through an RSS feed.

Now Elise you have brought up the allegation that I was using this in some way not proper - that is not the case.

http://www.usccb.org/bible/permissions/#print

If you do feel strongly that I or any other Catholic are abusing the various copyrights of the CCD then I encourage you to report us to:

Associate Director, Permissions CCD
3211 Fourth Street, NE
Washington, DC 20017-1194

OR

feel free to call them directly and complain at 202-541-3098

Please Elise do it .... it’s for the children, and ...

For the Greater Glory of God

[redleghunter]

In 1466, in festivities sponsored by Pope Paul II, Jews were made to race naked through the streets of the city. A particularly evocative later account describes them: “Races were run on each of the eight days of the Carnival by horses, asses and buffaloes, old men, lads, children, and Jews. Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them, and at the same time, more amusing for the spectators. They ran from the Arch of Domitian to the Church of St. Mark at the end of the Corso at full tilt, amid Rome’s taunting shrieks of encouragement and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.

I fail to see the "apostolic tradition" in these practices.

[LurkingSince'98]

to All,

I have been accused by Elise of doing something improper, regarding my excerpting from the CCD Lectionary, not once but several times.

Please note that the bottom of the Scripture I quoted states:

Excerpts from the Lectionary for Mass for Use in the Dioceses of the United States of America, second typical edition © 2001, 1998, 1997, 1986, 1970 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Inc., Washington, DC. Used with permission. All rights reserved. No portion of this text may be reproduced by any means without permission in writing from the copyright owner.

Be advised that any and all posts that I or any other Catholics make from the Lectionary published by the CCD are exempt from permissions under:

1) The Fair Use Exemption as stated several times, and

2) under the following CCD permissions:

One-time print use

No written permission is required for one-time use.

The official liturgical text must be followed. All excerpts must be verbatim from the text, including capitalization and punctuation. The poetic structure of those readings written in verse (for example, Psalms, Wisdom, Isaiah, etc.) must be preserved in verse as printed.

The appropriate acknowledgment must be printed either beneath the reading(s) or with the other acknowledgments:

“Excerpts from the Lectionary for Mass for Use in the Dioceses of the United States of America, second typical edition © 2001, 1998, 1997, 1986, 1970 Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Inc., Washington, DC. Used with permission. All rights reserved. No portion of this text may be reproduced by any means without permission in writing from the copyright owner.”

Web and other digital Media Usage

No permission or fee is needed to display the daily readings on a website through an RSS feed.

Now Elise has brought up the allegation that I was using this in some way not proper - that is not the case.

http://www.usccb.org/bible/permissions/#print

If ANY of you feel strongly that I or any other Catholic are abusing the various copyrights of the CCD then I encourage you to report us to:

Associate Director, Permissions CCD
3211 Fourth Street, NE
Washington, DC 20017-1194

OR

feel free to call them directly and complain at 202-541-3098

Please do it .... it’s for the children, and ...

For the Greater Glory of God

[Alex Murphy]

I have been accused by Elise of doing something improper, regarding my excerpting from the CCD Lectionary, not once but several times.

Have you filled out the requisite form?

[LurkingSince'98]

“The thread’s back open, folks!
This was strange.
Any reason given?”

Yes, the thread is back open - any guesses why??

1) It was outrageous that the Admin Mod chose to close the thread because Salvation and I complained that were were being blatantly discussed in the threads without being addressed.

2) It was doubly outrageous that we were the only two posters called out for “spamming” no less. That is a typical Hillary Clinton, Debbie Wasserman and Saul Alinsky technique of isolating and blaming the victim(s).

3) well maybe after being compared to Saul Alinsky someone woke up all I know is I got several different reasons (excuses) from the mods.

4) Too late - damage done - contest ends right now.

In addition, the contest is over because NOT ONE protestant ever ante-ed up and offered to put up the $750 if they lost.

Also, e-mailed JR who received the e-mail but who failed to respond so I guess he was not interested either.

Plus all I heard was complaints and lots of talk but little action, except for Alamo-Girl who is always helpful, courteous and kind - kind of like a Girl Scout.

bye back to work and Holy Week....

For the Greater Glory of God

[Alex Murphy]

I deleted your recent FReepmail without reading it, as I don’t usually read unsolicited FReepmails sent to this handle. If the contents were safe for public reading, please feel free to repost it on the thread.

[metmom]

Add this to your list of complaints...

[Elsie]

Please Elise do it .... it’s for the children, and ...

I'd much rather search the deeps of mine own intellect and pontificate some verbage that is vacous yet sounds pompous, and then stick my OWN disclaimer on it; so no one will try to take credit for the countless hours spent by flickering candlelight.

---

On second thought; I'll place my IMPRIMATUR upon it; setting Willy free to roam the seas of Liberty - as long as I still get credit for it.

[redleghunter]

Excellent post.

[Elsie]

I have been accused by Elise of doing something improper, regarding my excerpting from the CCD Lectionary, not once but several times.

Poor man: tormented by the twin demons of Cut & Paste.

Worries what others may think of him.

Tries to justify what legally needs no justification.

[metmom]

There is a difference between where Christ is from and whom He saves. That He mingled with sinners is very true; but His sinless mother indicated that He Himself is from where there is no sin.

Catholicism gets it wrong again.

Jesus said He came from the Father. That alone would make Him sinless.

[Elsie]

1) It was outrageous that the Admin Mod chose to close the thread because Salvation and I complained that were were being blatantly discussed in the threads without being addressed.

Wasn't it the Perry Mason show that always got the perp to identify him(her)self with a slip of the tongue?

[Elsie]

1) It was outrageous that the Admin Mod chose to close the thread because Salvation and I complained that were were being blatantly discussed in the threads without being addressed.

So; you are seemingly upset because you were not notified, but NOT, apparently, about being BLATANTLY discussed.

HMMMmmm...

---

And...

...a thousand pardons to Salvation for not addressing you in the previous post.

Things tend to be missed when Paste & Cut do their little dance routine.

[Elsie]

In addition, the contest is over because NOT ONE protestant ever ante-ed up and offered to put up the $750 if they lost.

Don't worry; for another windmill will come along this way soon.

[metmom]

It was outrageous that the Admin Mod chose to close the thread because Salvation and I complained that were were being blatantly discussed in the threads without being addressed.

So give the RM a break and quit yer whining. Quit being so easily offended. Are you adults or not?

It was doubly outrageous that we were the only two posters called out for “spamming” no less. That is a typical Hillary Clinton, Debbie Wasserman and Saul Alinsky technique of isolating and blaming the victim(s).

Did it ever occur to you that nobody else was hitting the abuse button?

Maybe that's the reason why nobody else was mentioned.

Too late - damage done - contest ends right now. = *I'm taking my ball and going home right now.*

Boo hoo.....

[Elsie]

ButtHurt²

WHAT???

[Elsie]