Predestination: Should We Even Talk About It?

Full Title: Predestination: Should We Even Talk About It? Is the doctrine of predestination an obstacle to the usefulness of preaching?

I’d like to begin a series on—get ready—predestination. Yes, I said that word. I know this is not the most popular topic to bring up among polite company; in fact, it’s downright divisive, isn’t it? In the fifth century, Augustine recounted in his letters that some said, “The doctrine of predestination is an obstacle to the usefulness of preaching.” And who wants an obstacle? In the sixteenth century, John Calvin had to go out of his way to state that preachers should preach no less on the deity of the Son, the deity of the Holy Spirit, or the creation of the universe than on predestination.

Should we even talk or preach about predestination? Because predestination is a biblical doctrine, the answer is a resounding “Yes!” You see, without predestination, you would have no Bible. Abram was chosen out of Ur of the Chaldeans (Gen. 12). Israel was chosen out of all the nations of the earth (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–8; Ps. 105:6). A new Israelite remnant was chosen after their exile (Isa. 41:8–9; 42:1; 43:1–7; 44:1–2; 45:4). Jesus taught predestination (Matt. 11:25–27;13:11–16; Mark 4:11–12; John 6:37, 66; 10:26–30; 14:1; 17:6, 9, 11–12). The Apostles taught predestination (Rom. 8:28–39; 9–11; Eph. 1; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 1 Peter 2:5–10). Since predestination is a biblical doctrine, we must talk about it. The question is how?

Let me point you to a succinct answer. When theologians, pastors, and elders from throughout Europe gathered in the Dutch town of Dordrecht in 1618–1619 to deal with the Arminian controversy, they offered this statement:

“Just as, by God’s wise plan, this teaching concerning divine election has been proclaimed through the prophets, Christ himself, and the apostles, in Old and New Testament times, and has subsequently been committed to writing in the Holy Scriptures, so also today in God’s church, for which it was specifically intended, this teaching must be set forth—with a spirit of discretion, in a godly and holy manner, at the appropriate time and place, without inquisitive searching into the ways of the Most High. This must be done for the glory of God’s most holy name, and for the lively comfort of his people.” (Canons of Dort 1.14)

This blog post lays out the ground rules for how we must talk and preach about predestination as Christ’s witnesses in the world.

We must talk about predestination with discernment. When Paul penned Romans 9, he was writing to a Christian congregation made up of Jews and Gentiles in distinction from unbelieving Jews and Gentiles. Believing Jews were those of the promise while unbelieving Jews were those merely of the flesh (Rom. 9:3, 6–8). Paul used another illustration of this concept when he said that among the Jews there were those who were of the vast sand of ethnic Israel while there were also those who were of a small gathered remnant (Rom. 9:27).

This means that when you talk and preach about predestination, you must always keep in mind those you with whom you are speaking. Are you talking to unbelievers? If so, are they hard-hearted and scoffing at the doctrine, or do you discern the working of the Holy Spirit in their genuinely questioning the truth? Are you talking to a congregation of professing believers? If so, some may be strong in faith and able to plumb the depths and scale the heights of such a doctrine, while others may be weak in faith and the very mention of predestination will cause them doubts and worries. Are you talking to adults, with all the distinctions above, or are there also children in the audience? And while you are talking to such a congregation, keep in mind that there are those who genuinely believe, whether strongly or weakly, and that there may also be those who are merely pretending to believe, as hypocrites do.

We must also talk and preach about predestination with reverence. Paul talks reverently of predestination in Romans 9:20–21: “But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?” This was the climax of Paul’s argument in Romans 9. Paul begins his argument by talking about the unbelief of the ancient covenant people, his fellow Jews (vv. 1–5). The first objection he addresses was whether God’s promise to Israel had failed (v. 6). But Paul says that ever since God began his promises to the patriarchs there was a distinction between those “descended from Israel” and those who truly “belong to Israel” (v. 6), between those who are merely Abraham’s outward children of the flesh and those who truly are children because they are Abraham’s offspring of the promise (vv. 7–8). Paul starts in history and then works his way back into eternity: “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (v. 11).

The next objection is whether God is unjust because he chooses one and not another. Paul’s answer is, “By no means!” (v. 14) He doesn’t speculate but simply quotes Scripture (vv. 15–17), concluding that God “has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills” (Rom. v. 18).

But if this is true, then “why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (v. 19) Do you hear the objection? It’s that predestination makes us robots since there’s nothing we can do about it. Paul doesn’t offer a philosophical response sorting out this conundrum. He asserts that God is God and we are not; he is the Creator and we are creatures; he is a potter and we are clay (vv. 20–21).

Because predestination is a topic shrouded in mystery as well as much misunderstanding, we should speak of it reverently as Paul did. Notice how Paul ends this entire section of Romans 9–11 by saying, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Rom. 11:33). In commenting on this passage John Calvin said that when we discuss God’s eternal counsel “we must always restrain both our language and manner of thinking, so that when we have spoken soberly and within the limits of the Word of God, our argument may finally end in an expression of astonishment.”

We must also talk of predestination in such a way that it is for God’s glory. “God has failed.” “God is unjust.” “God makes us robots.” Paul’s point in Romans 9 is that predestination solves these objections because it is ultimately for God’s glory, not our intellectual satisfaction. “Who are you, O man?” (v. 20) God is God. You are not. “Has the potter no right?” (v. 21) Absolutely he does. He glorifies Himself in His pottery, making “one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use” (v. 21). Paul’s ultimate point is that God glorifies Himself in His works: “What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory” (vv. 22–23, emphasis mine).

When you talk or preach about predestination, are you doing so to bring him praise? “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:3–4). When you talk or preach about predestination, are you doing so to magnify His grace? “To the praise of his glorious grace” (v. 6). In fact, Paul repeats this doxology two more times inEphesians 1:12 and 1:14 because God has poured out His extravagant grace upon His people. When you talk or preach about predestination, can your words be “translated” to say this: “For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36).

Finally, we must talk of predestination in such a way that it is also for our comfort. What comfort does Romans 9 have for you, for the world, and for me? After starting with recorded redemptive history in the Old Testament, then tracing backward into eternity, Paul ends up placing the gospel right in our laps, in our own personal history: “even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (Rom. 9:24). Don’t accuse God of lying. Don’t accuse God of injustice. Don’t accuse God of making robots. Rather, believe.

But the objection people had and still have is that when we talk of predestination, it is only beneficial for those whom God “calls.” When you talk of predestination, it should always lead to the gospel: “Do you want to know that you have been called into God’s kingdom because he predestined you for that glory? Then believe in Jesus.” When we talk this way, we lead people to the joy of knowing that while they once were “not my [God’s] people,” God now calls them “my people” and “sons of the living God” (Rom. 9:25–26). As Martin Luther once wrote:

“Follow the order of the Epistle to the Romans. Worry first about Christ and the gospel, that you may recognize your sins and his grace, and then fight your sin, as Paul teaches from the first to the eighth chapters. Then, when you come under the cross and suffering in the eighth chapters, this will teach you of foreknowledge in chapters 9, 10, and 11, and how comforting it is.”

Yes, we should talk about predestination. We should talk about it in a way that leads sinners to Jesus Christ, which brings God eternal glory, and which brings God’s people eternal comfort.

Fourteen generations ago my ancestors got off the Mayflower carrying their Geneva Bibles and believing in predestination.

You did not see predestination in the old Soviet Union. You saw resignation. Fourteen generations of believing in predestination, not one generation or family member on welfare, about seven ancestors who fought in the American Revolution one of whom had his head blown off at the Battle of Bennington, an uncle who clawed his way to the top of Mount Suribachi as a USMC linesmen and watched them raise the flag twice. Myself a retired USAF intelligence officer who was in Germany when the wall came down plus a BA, an MA, an MDiv, and a DMin which all required a great deal of motivation and you say belief in predestination is “a killer of motivation” as it creates an attitude of “Why Bother.”

Predestination has enabled me to be a risk taker and put my life on the line for freedom because I have absolute confidence and trust that I belong to my faithful Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and not a hair on my head can fall without the will of my Father in Heaven.

While God COULD over ride man’s choices, he wont because he keeps his promises.

God places limits upon mans choices leaving Himself Sovereign. It appears to man that he is sovereign over his choices and that there are no limits. But God has placed limits sufficient for His own purposes (Matthew 6:34).

God sometimes overrides man's choice as when the the leaders of Jericho came to kill the Hebrew spies. Or when David was with the Philistines. God is far more sovereign than one thinks. Are we not thankful for this?

Now that, my FRiend, is a sermon! Great citations and excellent hermeneutics. I would add, without trying to improve your post (it needs nothing), those wonderful remarks in Eph. 1:4 where Paul notes that, “...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” And, you are absolutely right, we will be so grateful when this is all over that He would choose nothings like us. All glory will go to Him, and we will praise His Name...

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are called of the Father. He keeps us and sustains us. We are to be of sober mind of our awesome God and work diligent for Him out of love and respect for what He has given us. The scriptures are very clear about this.

Does God call us to repent? If so, why?

Yes, because it is part of the cleaning process. Turning away from our sin is good and He is a Gracious God to cleans us from all unrighteousness as we do.

Predestination does not absolve us from our duties the Word of God. But it makes it easier since He is so loving and kind towards folks like us.

If God decided to turn these, too from their sin, why wouldn't they also be part of God's elect?

Then all would be saved because no one can stay God's hand. But God did not do this.

The problem with most folks about predestination is that they don't believe mankind is 'dead in trespasses and sin'. They don't believe how bad Psalm 14 and 53 (and quoted by the Apostle Paul in Romans 3) is even though this is repeated 3 times in Scripture that None sought Him on their own, None Understood God on the own, and None did Good on their own.

Instead they believe mankind is spiritually sick and not dead and able to save themselves through their choice; man earninging His salvation through His choice. This gives man the glory and makes man the center of His faith (which is self centered and not good).

Whereas believing that mankind is dead in trespasses and sin means that God has to do major work before the new birth. He basically has to do a spiritual heart transplant and a reprogramming of the mind so that the person can love Him and hold faith in the persons brain (into which God gives a measure: See Romans 5:12).

God also gives 'ears to hear' and 'eyes to see' the things of God. So that when the preacher preaches the Word to him he will hear, and seeing such that he can see the Word for himself- be convicted of his sin (now that he has a heart and mind able to do so) and to confess the faith that God has planted inside him - going from Darkness into Life. Since God does this, the believer later can give him all the glory since there is no way he or she could have done it. With the doctrine of salvation by choice, man gets the glory and can unchoose God later on a whim and loose his Salvation.

Whereas if God has done everything necessary for faith and salvation then to Him belongs all the Glory and all the Praise.

Are those not part of God’s elect equally capable...?

Being 'Dead in Trespasses and Sin' they are not capable being spiritually 'Dead'. Dead means Dead.

The elect of God are quickened by God, out of the dead. Thus the believer says as in Ephesians 2:5 God... "made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions".

Here is a question, Did God make you Alive from deadness in trespasses and sin or did you? Which one is right, the Apostle Paul or man?

“Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel” “All”, everyone is the key.

Predestination has more to do with God’s Omnipotence, than the Elect being some written list...in that God knows the future, so in advance who will accept Jesus, therefore they have a destiny. They are predestined to accept him....they become the elect by free will choice, one of the universal laws spoken into existence during the Big Bang (God spoke the world into existence...how could there not have been a loud noise aka big bang).

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” —Luke 13:5

Why did Christ call us to repent?

Is he talking only to the elect?

If he's only speaking to the elect, by declaring that unless we repent we shall perish isn't he denying that God's grace is irresistible?

When we talk about the Elect, we are speaking of those who belong to God, and obviously all made that choice.

Omnipotence gives God the understanding of who will choose him, as well as many other things. That knowing of their destiny by choice, makes them God’s Elect by the Predestination of their choice.

Metaphor: “If I can look into the future and see that seven things are necessary for completion of a project, then I would surely buy those seven things...possibly make a list of those seven things. Predestined to buy those things. Would God list people who he knows will not accept him?

So those predestined have to be the ones he knows will accept, but that is just my humble opinion of how it works.

Yes, a Calvinist would probably disagree, however, Scripture interprets itself by the Holy Spirit. All denominations who accept Jesus as Savior will be represented in Heaven, not because they are Calvinists etc.
Man’s doctrine is obvious in the need for so many denominations, but Jesus is not religious, he’s personal.

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