Posted on 03/19/2014 8:19:20 PM PDT by ealgeone
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION
PART ONE THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9 "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503
Fixed it.
Simply because we have an unbroken line back to Christ. He promised to build His Church (Matt 16:18) and that the Holy Spirit would guide Her (John 16:13). If we have an unbroken line to the promise, I will trust in His promise... and there are very good records showing this unbroken line.
God = theos
Lord = Kurios
Lord ≠ theos
That is absurd, as it makes Mary second class after Jael as blessed among women, who served a salvific purpose for Israel:
Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent. (Judges 5:24)
Moreover, being the first mentioned does not equate to superiority -which is what is claimed for Mary in virtue - as salvation is of the Jews, they being first stewards of Scripture, the and he that is born into the kingdom is greater than John the Baptist (take that you Baptists!), while the word itself (charitoō=graced/favored) does not convey any superior degree.
She literally was the first was saved by Christ because she was saved FOR Christ (to be His dwelling prior to birth).
That is incorrect also, as God "saved" Israel first to be His instrument and vessel of salvation, and in fact if Mary was not Jewish, she would not have been used:
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 9:3-5)
And the response of the Lord to the protoCatholic who declared, "Blessed is the womb that bore thee and the paps that gave thee suck." was,
But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it," (Luk 11:27,28 DRB) thus deflecting a perfect chance to expand on and exalt Mary above all.
Furthermore, the idea that a sinless vessel was required is also absurd, for not only due God bring forth his pure word thru imperfect men, but if God preserved Mary from "original sin" (which even the EOs reject) then He could have brought forth Christ thru Eve.
Mary was a holy virtuous women who was blessed above all in that she was chosen to be the vessel to bring forth Christ and serve as his mother "according to flesh," without being ontologically called the "mother of God."
But which does not mean she is the most righteous, and in fact she is rather marginal in the NT, and is never mention as an object of devotion throughout, while the Holy Spirit gives far far more print to describing the sacrificial love and labor of Paul, and to whom He manifestly attributes no sin, but who is relatively marginalized by RCs.
No you didn’t fix it - since it wasn’t broken.
You still don’t get paid enough.
So you’re saying Jesus isn’t God?
Jesus had a different opinion about who the greatest person born was and there was no mention of Mary in it.
Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
As I've said elsewhere on this thread, 1 Kings 2 is useful for understanding Mary's position in the Kingdom. You can't take the frailties of Bathsheba and apply them to Mary any more than you can take the failings of Ahab and apply them to Christ.
I'm saying that Mary isn't the mother of God.
She was the mother of Jesus.
In Scripture, the Holy Spirit calls her *mother of Jesus*.
John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
Scripture is clear in calling Mary *the mother of Jesus*.
Elizabeth called Mary the mother of the LORD (kurios).
The Holy Spirit called Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Metmom was kind enough to actually reply. What people lose interest in is evasiveness. My reply will be to her post.
Well she might have made a few mother 'suggestions' while he was growing up. But it seems he gave his mother more respect than you do.
This has been resorted to again and again, as RCs try to support what is a tradition with Scripture, and as it does not give even one example, they must resort to extrapolation as this. As if the Holy Spirit would not mention even one prayer out of the hundreds or in instruction on who to pray to.
And your example here utterly fails to provide any example of prayer being addressed to the departed, as at best all it shows is that of beings offering prayer, incense representing prayer, evidently after the OT memorial sense, (Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) NOT being the object of virtually unlimited prayers addressed to them and being able to process them. It simply it not there!
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do...Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus.
Once again you are trying to extrapolate support for a most common Cath. practice but which is not exampled once, and it does not follow that since we ask others to pray for us here that this ability transcends the division btwn earth and heaven, and makes the departed an object of prayer to Heaven.
Prayer to Heaven in Scripture is an act of worship, as it is a mark of Deity to be able to hear mental prayer, esp. multitudes, while communication btwn created beings from their respective realms was required one to be in the real of the other, even if by vision, and was never a matter of bowing down and beseeching another believer, which you never see approved in the NT, and which the angel of Christ disallowed.
In Scripture you would have a very hard time explaining that bowing before a statue and mentally praying was not idolatry. But Catholics are highly presumptuous.
Moreover, not only was the Lord the only one addressed and prayer, and the teaching on who prayer to Heaven is addressed states it is "our Father" who "call upon the name of the Lord," "abba, Father" not "mama mother," but believers have direct access into the holiest by the sinless shed blood of Christ,as said.
Furthermore, is is the Lord Jesus, not any departed saint, whom the Holy Spirit sets for as the all-sufficient intercessor, the only intercessor btwn earth and Heaven, and whom believers come directly to,
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:18)
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16)
Yet Catholics essentially have Scripture saying this of Mary, the "dispenser of all grace," etc. etc.!
You must understand two very important concepts for this... the universality of the Church and the Communion of Saints....
All this verbiage is simply an attempt to rationalize support for a common Catholic practice, derived from paganism, of praying to someone else in glory besides the Lord, but which the Holy Spirit simply fails to once example or teach to do!
And which rationalization insists on such as a full correspondence of earthly relationships to that of btwn two distinct realm, so that the departed, like only God is in Scripture, are addressed in prayer and can hear multitudes of such from earth, with believers even bowing down and beseeching their brethren for favor!
What you must understand is the manifest division btwn the two and the unique position and ability of God/Christ to transcend it. For full well do ye dishonor Christ whom the Holy Spirit sets up alone as the all-sufficient and direct intercessor, and are guilty of bringing souls to "think of men above that which is written. (1 Corinthians 4:6).
I forgot to thank you (thank God) for that, but frankly i see PTDS as dishonoring God and going beyond what is written, and then trying to defend it by what is written, and the latter is as much a sin as the former.
By such wresting (2Pt. 3:16) attempts RCs end up being an argument against being Catholic, and would be better off simply stating the truth, that insted it comes from Tradition (if they can define it and its extent), and trying to justify that. For after call, RC doctrines do not need actual support from Scripture. Which is another argument against Rome.
Simply because we have an unbroken line back to Christ. He promised to build His Church (Matt 16:18) and that the Holy Spirit would guide Her (John 16:13). If we have an unbroken line to the promise, I will trust in His promise... and there are very good records showing this unbroken line.
Very well, then assurance of Truth can be obtained via objective examination of evidence?
And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture means such are the infallible interpreters of it, so that dissent from them is rebellion against God?
“I’m saying that Mary isn’t the mother of God.”
Then you’re saying Jesus isn’t God.
Now that's what I'd call an interesting conflation of terms.
A little of that behavior goes a long way. Tone it down.
DarkSavant, we moderators do not reveal our Freeper names or our religious beliefs.
LOL
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