Posted on 03/19/2014 8:19:20 PM PDT by ealgeone
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION
PART ONE THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9 "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503
John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
Scripture is clear in calling Mary *the mother of Jesus*.
“The Holy Spirit never says that Mary is the mother of God.”
So you’re denying the Lord is God?
“The Greek word used that is translated *Lord* is not the Greek word for *God* and is never translated as *God*.”
Really? Well, you better let a lot of Protestants know that - you know, like all those Protestants who use Strong’s Concordance and Dictionary in which they’re told “or a NT translation of the Hebrew 151 ‘LORD’ or 3378 ‘LORD,’ that is ‘Yahweh,’ the proper name of God in the OT.” You let them know that, okay?
“Well then why is it RCs cannot answer simply basic questions.”
We can. I choose a different approach.
“Will you even try?”
Did it many times. No, I approach things in a different way.
“That’s correct because the one true church, the body of Christ, is NOT a denomination or organization.”
The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is organized, as were the Apostles and Disciples. Protestants are nothing but sectarians.
“It’s a living organism comprised of all born again believers in Jesus.”
Catholics are in the Church. Protestants have sects.
“It says Lord, not God.”
So, again, you’re saying the Lord is not God?
Very normal people who otherwise do not appear special are still called to do special things to help the body of Christ.
Maybe we don't agree right now on who those people are, but I think we agree that otherwise sinful people can be transformed to do something better.
“In Scripture, the Holy Spirit calls her *mother of Jesus*.”
Jesus is God. Are you denying He is God?
“Scripture is clear in calling Mary *the mother of Jesus*.”
Scripture calls Mary the mother of the Lord. The Lord is God. Do you deny the Lord is God?
Don’t forget that before there was the Bible, there was the church. It was teaching, preaching, baptizing, marrying, etc. It came to know God. Thus, tradition was born. The Bible did not become available to the middle class until the 1500s. Thus, it is not unexpected that the church believes in certain non-biblical concepts because it preceded the Bible. The church is the Bride of Christ and was so before there was a canon.
That Queen of Heaven was not Mary, but rather a goddess of another religion. You are mixing apples and oranges.
John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.
Scripture is clear in calling Mary *the mother of Jesus*.
Or was the Holy Spirit wrong in how He referred to Mary?
You wrote:
“Don’t forget that before there was the Bible, there was the church. It was teaching, preaching, baptizing, marrying, etc.”
Agreed.
“It came to know God. Thus, tradition was born.”
Wouldn’t be better to say the Church came FROM God. He established the Church. And Tradition was not so much born as it was passed on to the Church.
“The Bible did not become available to the middle class until the 1500s. Thus, it is not unexpected that the church believes in certain non-biblical concepts because it preceded the Bible.”
Protestantism, stemming from the German and Dutch middle class of the 16th century did, in fact, adopt and foster a number of “non-biblical concepts”.
The Church really has none.
“The church is the Bride of Christ and was so before there was a canon.”
Agreed.
“Or was the Holy Spirit wrong in how He referred to Mary?”
In scripture, the Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth to say that Mary is the mother of the Lord (Luke 1:43).
Jesus is the Lord, and the Lord is God. Why do you keep avoiding that fact?
In the Biblical sense how can Joseph be called Mary’s husband if they did not become one flesh?
He couldn't. Being a husband comes with rights and responsibilities.
Sex is one of them. That's what being *one flesh* is about and that is God's intent for married couples.
Was the Holy Spirit wrong in what He called Mary?
You keep avoiding THAT question.
Was Scripture God breathed and Holy Spirit inspired or not?
“In the Biblical sense how can Joseph be called Mary’s husband if they did not become one flesh?”
Apply that to Jesus and His bride. You might get an interesting answer either way.
“Was the Holy Spirit wrong in what He called Mary?”
Through Elizabeth He called Mary the mother of the Lord. Was He wrong?
“You keep avoiding THAT question.”
Nope. I never doubted for a second who Mary was the mother of. You, however, cannot seem to bring yourself to agree with what the Holy Spirit said through Elizabeth in Luke 1:43. Jesus is the Lord and the Lord is GOD. Do you deny that basic truth?
“Was Scripture God breathed and Holy Spirit inspired or not?”
Was scripture God breathed and Holy Spirit inspired when the Holy Spirit is shown in Luke 1:43 to inspire Elizabeth to say that Mary is the mother of the Lord?
And have you forgotten this?:
Strong’s Concordance and Dictionary: “or a NT translation of the Hebrew 151 ‘LORD’ or 3378 ‘LORD,’ that is ‘Yahweh,’ the proper name of God in the OT.”
HELPS Word-studies Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).
“The justification used by the Catholic teaching is that the term favored one was a special title addressed to her.”
No. That is not a justification. That is an explanation. Also, it is not “favored one” - that is merely a translation and not even the one traditionally favored (no pun intended) by Catholics. The Greek term is kecharitomene.
So based on this, the greek interlinear would translate it along these lines:
and having come to her, he said, Greetings (you) favored with grace! The Lord (is) with you[blessed are you among women].
Note: this address to Mary is not in caps indicating it is not a title. elsewhere in the Bible where titles are indicated they are in caps.
depending on the text the blessed are you among women, is in question. This is noted in brackets in the greek interlinear. NASB doesn't translate it; the 4th edition Greek New Testament (United Bible Societies doesn't), KJV does.
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. KJV
And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." NASB
the tense is perfect tense which indicates an continuous action with results continuing in the present(from the speaker's perspective, not the readers)
in Ephesians the tense is aorist which generally translates as an undefined action that normally occurs in the past. So we could translate this as the grace that was freely bestowed upon us.....
“The justification used by the Catholic teaching is that the term favored one was a special title addressed to her.” No. That is not a justification. That is an explanation. Also, it is not “favored one” - that is merely a translation and not even the one traditionally favored (no pun intended) by Catholics. The Greek term is kecharitomene.
According to Catholic.com (http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin) this was a title given to Mary
First, according to biblical scholars (as well as Pope John Paul II), the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. (cf. Redemptoris Mater, 8, 9). In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or "Hail, full of grace." catholic.com
Now, was Mary favored by God for this special purpose of being the mother of Jesus? Yes. Any woman chosen by God for this purpose would have to be favored by God.
Will this status be taken away? No...not based on the tense of the Greek.
Does this make Mary any better than you or I? Only in the sense that she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus.
If she were to be accorded a special status then the KJV would not have translated as blessed are you among women.
Note it doesn't say mankind here. Only women.
And indeed she was favored among women.
“It’s the same verb, but in different tenses.”
Which in Greek means two different meanings and implications. Thanks for playing.
Well Vlad resorting to unsubstantiated insults seems to be your comfort zone. This and before calling those who disagree with you “morons” is not exhibiting maturity. Don’t worry I grew up in the same Catholic schools you did...I won’t rat you out.
Perhaps resorting to defending your doctrines with scriptures might work a bit better for you. Try it sometime.
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