Posted on 03/19/2014 8:19:20 PM PDT by ealgeone
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION
PART ONE THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9 "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503
“Holy Spirit called her *mother of Jesus* in the Bible, did He not?”
So you’re saying Jesus isn’t God? Elizabeth said Mary was the mother of the Lord, did she not?
“Why does the Catholic church presume to correct the words of the Holy Spirit?”
You’re the only one who needs correcting, and it just happened. Why do Protestants presume to lie and make things up about the Catholic Church?
Yes, but she was saved at the moment of her conception unlike you and I. Her Divine Son gave her a great gift of grace from the beginning. He saved her from sin from her beginning. You and I are saved by Christ differently for we have already sinned.
Where in the world do you get this stuff?? There is NOTHING in the Bible that suggests she was free/saved from sin at her conception. That is a HUGE assumption of Catholic teaching.
The justification used by the Catholic teaching is that the term favored one was a special title addressed to her. IT was used in Luke, but the same word is also used to describe believers in Ephesians 1:6. I've included the Greek definition below for reference.
Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).
I know Catholic teaching then somehow stretches, and boy do I mean stretch, this to mean that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Again, another concept made up by man with NO Biblical support at all.
Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name” (Luke 1:46-49). Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-Mary.html#ixzz2wY94hyt0
Why did the Catholic church change it then?
Wasn’t what the Holy Spirit did good enough for them?
Well I thought you had me there with regards to Bathsheba and Solomon. However, the example given in 1 Kings 2 is a poor example of a queen mother giving advice or making requests of a king son. In this case Bathsheba was hoodwinked by Solomon’s brother and she is rebuked by Solomon:
1 Kings 2:20-23 NABRE
She said, “There is one small favor I would ask of you. Do not refuse me.” The king said to her, “Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you.” So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunamite be given to your brother Adonijah to be his wife.”
King Solomon answered his mother, “And why do you ask that Abishag the Shunamite be given to Adonijah? Ask the kingship for him as well, for he is my older brother! Ask for him, for Abiathar the priest, for Joab, son of Zeruiah!” And King Solomon swore by the L ord : “May God do thus to me and more, if Adonijah has not spoken this word at the cost of his life.(NABRE)
I caution not to use the following queen mother events in the Kings books. The image of queens gets worse.
And the Greek (charitoō=graced/favored) says the same of all believers:
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph 1:6)
“Why did the Catholic church change it then?”
Nothing was changed. Jesus IS God.
“Wasn’t what the Holy Spirit did good enough for them?”
Who do you think told Elizabeth Who was in Mary’s womb? The Holy Spirit did (Luke 1:41). And she said: “And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (1:43)
The Lord is God. Jesus is God. Mary is His mother. Mary is the mother of God.
Excellent point. I don’t think I have downplayed the role of Blessed Mary at all. Pointing out, as you did, the Biblical Mary leads us to follow her example of faithfulness, dedication, humility and servitude. That is the Mary I see in scriptures and she is one of the great examples of Great Faith in the Bible. When we debate these theological issues such as what you wrote is lost.
When I take issue with traditions which go beyond the scriptural evidence I in no way am trying to sully Blessed Mary.
*Mother of God* does not say the same thing as *mother of Jesus*.
*Mother of God* makes her deity and makes God finite.
Jesus had a mother. God did not.
Indeed in looking to Heaven, God's throne. In Scripture bowing down and beseeching someone in Heaven for favor would be considered an act of worship, and the only ones who prayed to someone else in Heaven were indeed pagans. And the problem is devotion to Mary is that is essential deifies here by attributing to her powers and a level of adoration that belongs to God only.
While anyone who criticizes the excess devotion to Mary is censured by RCs, it seems there is hardly any limit to the supererogatory adoration ascribed to her which is far above what is written. (cf. 1Cor. 4:6)
The following are few examples of Catholic ascriptions to Mary (More can be seen at this link (The up mark ^ points to the last referenced source.).
We must never adore her; that is for God alone. But otherwise we cannot honor her to excess, because it is not possible to overestimate the privileges God gave her in making her His own Mother. “What the church teaches,” by Monsignor J.D. Conway/ Imprimatur of Ralph L. Hayes,, New York; Harper and Brothers; 1962 (He also states, “It seems manifest that Christians simply adapted the art of pagan Rome to their religious needs:” p. 218) Pope Pius XII asserts in an address on the Queenship of Mary, “after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe....In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.’ Catholic Culture, Prayer of Pope Pius XII, Composed for the Marian Year, 1954 “The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ — (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” Through her “the elements are renewed, the netherworld is healed, the demons are trodden underfoot, men are saved and angels are restored.” — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173 In "Glories of Mary" by Liguori, whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization, he teaches, “He who is under the protection of Mary will be saved; he who is not will be lost . . . O immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection, and therefore we have recourse, to thee alone, and we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil. - . . Thou (Mary) art my only hope. . . . Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation ... My Queen and my Advocate with thy Son, whom I dare not approach “ (From Judge Fairly, p. 5). Richard of St. Laurence encourages sinners to have recourse to this great name, "because it alone will suffice to cure them of all their evils;" and "there is no disorder, however malignant, that does not immediately yield to the power of the name of Mary." — St. Alphonsus de Liguori http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/AL.html The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. — Iucunda Semper Expectatione, Pope Leo XIII, 1894 But by her compassion for her Divine Son she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins, for all their lives that heartrending vision was before them in every detail, and never for a moment forgotten. — The Reign of Mary, Vol. 40; Issue 48 "We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone. — Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary,” by John Ferraro, Nihil Obstat John C. Hogan, Diocesan Censor; Imprimatur (1) - Richard Cardinal Cushing Daughters of St.Paul, 1964). "After God, it is impossible to think of anything greater than His Mother." - — Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott, p. 83 1 (Tan Books & Publishers, Inc., 1974). Imprimatur: +Cornelius, Ep. Corgagiensis et Ap. Adm. Rossesis, October 7, 1954; "As Mother of the Word Incarnate, Mary was elevated to a certain equality with the Heavenly Father." - p. 83 ^ ..to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood...Next to God, she deserves the highest praise....no creature, can ever be compared to her:"To what shall I compare thee, or to whom shall I liken thee, O daughter of Jerusalem." (Lam. 2:13) [another verse taken out of context, as it refers to the affliction of Jewish mothers in general due to the judgment upon Jerusalem.] —http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-098.html ...all graces of the Precious Blood come through Mary. — http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/virgin-eucharist.htm "O Christian who comest full of faith to receive the Bread of life, eat It worthily, and remember that It was fashioned out of Mary's pure blood." Mary can quite rightfully beckon to us and speak to us in the words of the inspired prophet, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5). "The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose." — Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185. ..."Limitless is the difference between God's servants and His Mother...Your honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation; your greatness places you above the angels...from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer's Kingdom;... she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother's prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused....Theologians and preachers...must beware of unfounded opinions and exaggerated expressions which go beyond the truth." [an in-credible injunction if Scripture is to be held as the Truth, as going beyond the Truth us exactly what Pope Pius XII is doing. But Scripture is not the supreme authority for Rome, but is made into a servant for her purposes, and Truth to Rome can be whatever she autocratically declares.] — Ad Caeli Reginam, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html
“Where in the world do you get this stuff??”
God - through His Church.
“There is NOTHING in the Bible that suggests she was free/saved from sin at her conception.”
There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that all truths are in the Bible.
“That is a HUGE assumption of Catholic teaching.”
No assumption at all. It has always been taught that Mary was sinless. Thus, there is no “HUGE assumption” here.
“The justification used by the Catholic teaching is that the term favored one was a special title addressed to her.”
No. That is not a justification. That is an explanation. Also, it is not “favored one” - that is merely a translation and not even the one traditionally favored (no pun intended) by Catholics. The Greek term is kecharitomene.
“IT was used in Luke, but the same word is also used to describe believers in Ephesians 1:6. I’ve included the Greek definition below for reference.”
I know the definition. And, although I may be mistaken because I don’t have any books here, I believe that it is not the same word in Ephesians 1:6 but a variant of charitoo namely echaritosen. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle, while echaritosen is an indicative active aorist. Again, I may be remembering something incorrectly.
“I know Catholic teaching then somehow stretches, and boy do I mean stretch, this to mean that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Again, another concept made up by man with NO Biblical support at all.”
You’re completely wrong. This passage has little to do with Mary being the Ark of the Covenant. Mary is the Ark because she carried the Word made flesh, the Manna from Heaven, who was also the new High Priest. The old ark contained the Decalogue tablets, manna and Aaron’s staff. The only link between the verse in question and Mary as the new Ark is the idea that Mary’s purity is related to that of the Ark. You might want to read this:
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/mary-the-ark-of-the-new-covenant
http://www.salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/queen_the_ark_of_the_new_covenant
“Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant.”
You’re forgetting what she said in verse 48:From now on all generations will call me blessed.
Also, we only adore God. If we praise a saint, it is only because of what God did for that saint. That’s why Mary says:for the Mighty One has done great things for me.
They are our family, the communion of saints.
Which is only manifestly mentioned once among the other instructions in Acts and the epistles, in contrast to the exalted centrality Catholicism places it in, as "the source and summit of the Christian life," in which "is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church."
And in which the as explained here , presents the body of Christ as the churchwhich declares the Lord's death by how they kept the Lord's supper as a communal meal of sharing, not by focusing on the nature of the elements.
And instead of the Lord's supper being preached as "the source and summit of the Christian life," in which "is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church," the gospel is what is preached as giving life," and edification by seeing yourself in Christ, and letting the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:16)
All of which is interpretive of the gospel accounts of the Lord's supper, which, as in 1Cor. 11 , was a communal meal, a "feast of charity," (Jude 1:12) and inn which it is not taught that the pastors must be the ones who give thanks for the elements and distribute them, and are never show doing.
Which is more evidence the Bible was not written to support its beliefs, for if it had then there surely would be a chapter instructing pastors on the absolute primacy of this ritual and how to properly change them into the purported human body and blood, and frequent mention of this as doing so, not just breaking bread.
Mother of God implies existence before God. That is simply not true, nor is it biblical. Mary is the “Mother of Christ” and Christ is the Son of God. There’s a significant difference there. Mainly, the difference is one of idolatry. Please quit idolizing Mary, it’s not biblical.
“*Mother of God* does not say the same thing as *mother of Jesus*.”
“Mother of the Lord” does. Only God is the Lord. I keep making that point and you keep avoiding that. Gee, why is that?
“*Mother of God* makes her deity and makes God finite.”
So, you’re now claiming that the Holy Spirit deified Mary when He inspired Elizabeth to say Mary was the mother of the Lord???
“Jesus had a mother. God did not.”
You’re denying that Jesus is God.
In the end, Protestants always end up denying Christ in some way. Here we see it again.
Will you finally address the fact that the Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth to say that Mary was the mother of the Lord, or will you keep avoiding that in post after post?
Quite a play on words. Keep reading your caucus threads and see what words are used.
Prayers like the following belong to God not mortals:
Morning Consecration to Mary
My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.
O Mother of God, Immaculate Mary, to thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am an all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to thy love. To thee will I devote my services of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother thou art.
From now on my only desire is to do all things with thee, through thee, and for thee. I know I can accomplish nothing by my own strength, whereas thou can do everything that is the will of thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Thou are always victorious. Grant, therefore, O Helper of the Faithful, that my family, my parish, and my country might become in truth the Kingdom where thou reignest in the glorious presence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, forever and ever.
Amen.
Prayer to Our Lady of Guadalupe
Dear Mother, we love you. We thank you for your promise to help us in our need. We trust in your love that dries our tears and comforts us. Teach us to find our peace in your Son, Jesus, and bless us every day of our lives.
Help us to build a shrine in our hearts. Make it as beautiful as the one built for you on the Mount of Tepeyac. A shrine full of trust, hope, and love of Jesus growing stronger each day.
Mary, you have chosen to remain with us by giving us your most wonderful and holy self-image on Juan Diego’s cloak. May we feel your loving presence as we look upon your face. Like Juan, give us the courage to bring your message of hope to everyone.
You are our Mother and our inspiration. Hear our prayers and answer us.
Amen.
The Miraculous Medal
O Virgin Mother of God, Mary Immaculate, We dedicate and consecrate ourselves to you under the title of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal. May this Medal be for each one of us a sure sign of your affection for us and a constant reminder of our duties toward you. Ever while wearing it, may we be blessed by your loving protection and preserved in the grace of your Son. O Most Powerful Virgin, Mother of Our Savior, keep us close to you every moment of our lives. Obtain for us, your children, the grace of a happy death; so that in union with you, we may enjoy the bliss of Heaven forever.
Amen.
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm
“Mother of God implies existence before God.”
No, it doesn’t. It only implies Jesus is God. It can’t imply pre-existence before God because May is only a creature, and not the Creator. The Creator, however, chose to be born as a man (a man who was also God) and to be carried into the world by a woman. Women give birth to persons, not natures. Jesus was a Divine Person. Mary could only be the mother of God for that is what Jesus is.
>>Morons can conclude anything when they have no idea what they’re talking about.<<
Vlad was the above a typo? Did you mean Mormons and not morons?
The former does not mean the other, as it is ignores the manifest separation and distinction btwn realms. In which only the Lord is shown being addressed in prayer to Heaven, and able to hear multitudes of prayers. That alone, and the absence of even one prayer by a believer to anyone else in Heaven, is enough to disallow Prayer to departed saints (PTDS) . No one can justify such an utter absence for what is such a common practice. Thus while RCs attempt to extrapolate support from Scripture for it, yet in reality Scripture is not their basis for assurance doctrine, nor is actual proof from it necessary, but this is a tradition of men.
The Bible teaches abundantly on prayer, and in order to warrant PTDS (praying to departed saints in heaven) one must find an approved example or teaching of it, and some insufficiency in Christ or as regards immediate directly access to Him. Yet the Bible provides just the opposite and clearly so, as in all the multitudes of prayers in the Bible, the Holy Spirit provides zero examples of any believers praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, and the only persons who do make offerings and supplication to the departed are pagans. (Jer. 7:17-19).
In addition, nowhere in any instructions on prayer is any believer directed to pray to anyone but the Lord (not “our mother who art in Heaven”). Nor is any other intercessor in Heaven mentioned, and rather than any insufficiency in Christ, the Holy Spirit explicitly exalts His unique position and attributes, in which He alone is uniquely able to help us because He alone was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin, and alone is exalted as Lord and High priest, and is set forth as the One believers have immediate access to in seeking grace. (Heb. 2:17-18; 4:13-16
Moreover, the holy of holies in which believers have boldness to enter through the blood of Jesus Christ, (Heb. 10:19) which the Old Testament type exampled, was never a place in which one was met with secretaries, but the high priest communed directly with God, and as Christ is our high priest, through Him believers have direct access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Heb. 10:19-22; Eph. 2:18)
In light of this the advocate of PTDS has no real support or warrant from Scripture, and is left seeking to extrapolate this out of analogy between earthly communications, supposing a complete correspondence to that between earth and heaven, and or a "God can do anything" hermeneutic, but which is a strained and problematic exegesis which cannot overcome the weight of evidence against it, and such attempts are typical of cults when faced with the same.
“Quite a play on words.”
I don’t know what you mean.
“Keep reading your caucus threads and see what words are used.”
Why? You think I will see something new? Nope. No chance.
“Prayers like the following belong to God not mortals:”
No, actually they belong the saints too. God works through them. All the saints are one family under God.
They’re beautiful prayers. I understand why Protestants don’t understand them. After all Protestants don’t understand scripture, tradition, Church history, Christian art, Christian music, etc. Christianity is something Protestants have cheapened with their ignorance.
Don’t forget, Protestants often unwittingly hate beauty, truth and goodness.
No less a Protestant authority than the Protestant Ralph Adams Cram once wrote:
“From the outbreak of the Protestant revolution, the old kinship between beauty and religion was deprecated and often forgotten. Not only was there, amongst the reformers and their adherents, a definite hatred of beauty and a determination to destroy it when found; there was also a conscientious elimination of everything of the sort from the formularies, services, and structures that applied to their new religion. This unprecedented break between religion and beauty had a good deal to do with that waning interest in religion itself. Protestantism, with its derivative materialistic rationalism, divested religion of its essential elements of mystery and wonder, and worship of its equally essential elements of beauty. Under this powerful combination of destructive influences, it is not to be wondered at that, of the once faithful, many have fallen away. Man is, by instinct, not only a lover of beauty, he is also by nature a ‘ritualist,’ that is to say, he does, when left alone, desire form and ceremony, if significant. If this instinctive craving for ceremonial is denied to man in religion, where it preeminently belongs, he takes it on for himself in secular fields; elaborates ritual in secret societies, in the fashion of his dress, in the details of social custom. He also, in desperation, invents new religions and curious sects working up for them strange rituals . . . extravagant and vulgar devices that are now the sardonic delight of the ungodly. ... If once more beauty can be restored to the offices of religion, many who are now self-excommunicated from their Church will thankfully find their way back to the House they have abandoned. The whole Catholic Faith is shot through and through with this vital and essential quality of beauty. It is this beauty implicit in the Christian revelation and its operative system that was explicit in the material and visible Churches and their art. We must contend against the strongest imaginable combination of prejudices and superstitions. These are of two sorts. There is first, the heritage of ignorance and fear from the dark ages of the sixteenth century. I am speaking of non-Catholic Christianity. Ignorance of authentic history, instigated by protagonists of propaganda; fear of beauty, because all that we now have in Christian art was engendered and formulated by and through Catholicism; fear that the acceptance of beauty means that awful thing—’surrender to superstition.’ It is fear that lies at the root of the matter, as it does in so many other fields of mental activity.” (Radio Replies, vol. 2: 1052)
That is an assertion, not an argument. Which must have a basis, and thus the question, What is you basis for assurance that Rome is the One True and infallible Church?
“Vlad was the above a typo? Did you mean Mormons and not morons?”
No, I meant Protestant anti-Catholics so I used the correct term.
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