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To: pgyanke
you must understand that the Saints in Heaven are part of our Christian community and we can turn to them as we turn to each other for prayers and intercessions.

The former does not mean the other, as it is ignores the manifest separation and distinction btwn realms. In which only the Lord is shown being addressed in prayer to Heaven, and able to hear multitudes of prayers. That alone, and the absence of even one prayer by a believer to anyone else in Heaven, is enough to disallow Prayer to departed saints (PTDS) . No one can justify such an utter absence for what is such a common practice. Thus while RCs attempt to extrapolate support from Scripture for it, yet in reality Scripture is not their basis for assurance doctrine, nor is actual proof from it necessary, but this is a tradition of men.

The Bible teaches abundantly on prayer, and in order to warrant PTDS (praying to departed saints in heaven) one must find an approved example or teaching of it, and some insufficiency in Christ or as regards immediate directly access to Him. Yet the Bible provides just the opposite and clearly so, as in all the multitudes of prayers in the Bible, the Holy Spirit provides zero examples of any believers praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, and the only persons who do make offerings and supplication to the departed are pagans. (Jer. 7:17-19).

In addition, nowhere in any instructions on prayer is any believer directed to pray to anyone but the Lord (not “our mother who art in Heaven”). Nor is any other intercessor in Heaven mentioned, and rather than any insufficiency in Christ, the Holy Spirit explicitly exalts His unique position and attributes, in which He alone is uniquely able to help us because He alone was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin, and alone is exalted as Lord and High priest, and is set forth as the One believers have immediate access to in seeking grace. (Heb. 2:17-18; 4:13-16

Moreover, the holy of holies in which believers have boldness to enter through the blood of Jesus Christ, (Heb. 10:19) which the Old Testament type exampled, was never a place in which one was met with secretaries, but the high priest communed directly with God, and as Christ is our high priest, through Him believers have direct access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Heb. 10:19-22; Eph. 2:18)

In light of this the advocate of PTDS has no real support or warrant from Scripture, and is left seeking to extrapolate this out of analogy between earthly communications, supposing a complete correspondence to that between earth and heaven, and or a "God can do anything" hermeneutic, but which is a strained and problematic exegesis which cannot overcome the weight of evidence against it, and such attempts are typical of cults when faced with the same.

277 posted on 03/20/2014 5:33:17 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
I want to thank you for one of the best-written, and respectful religious challenges I've seen on this forum. What you wrote is excellent. I will respond in the same spirit.

Regarding prayers to saints in Heaven.

If we can agree that saints in Heaven do not pray on their own behalf... they are in Heaven... then I would ask you to look at Rev 5:8. In this scene, we see the four and twenty elders in Heaven presenting golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. If they are not praying for themselves, it is reasonable (though some may disagree) that these prayers are being offered on behalf of those still on Earth.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. In 1 Tim 2:1–4, St Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

You must understand two very important concepts for this... the universality of the Church and the Communion of Saints.

First, the Church is in all places. It is the Kingdom on Earth and it is joined through Christ with the Kingdom in Heaven. Authority over the Church on Earth is the same authority in Heaven. So it is that what is bound and loosed on Earth is bound and loosed in Heaven and so forth. It is one kingdom and we have been given appointed ministers to care the for the Kingdom in exile here on Earth. They have real authority, even in Heaven.

Second, the Communion of Saints is important as part of our Christian Creeds. In the Reformation the meaning of words was changed to comport with new theology so now Protestants see the communion of saints as more a body of believers. But that was not so from early in the Church. The Communion of Saints is the Body of Christ both here and in Heaven. We are one universal Church in one communion in one Body, which is Christ. They surround us as witnesses (Heb 12:1) and attend to our needs (Rev 5:8) as we do for each other physically in this world.

We do pray to Christ and we believe all that you have posted about our access to Him. You miss something, though, when you neglect that we are exhorted to pray for one another as intercessors and forget that we are part of a great and holy communion.

480 posted on 03/21/2014 8:48:52 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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