Posted on 03/19/2014 8:19:20 PM PDT by ealgeone
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION
PART ONE THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9 "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."502 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."503
I appreciate the references and will be happy to look into them. Please do feel free to ping me to those types of threads. I can’t countenance those doctrines that reject the Trinity as I’m sure you do.
AT A WEDDING PARTY!!!!!!
Big difference between what Catholics believe and what the Bible teaches.
Not wafers. And not slices of his own bleeding flesh.
You got me. I'll tell the Pope that redleghunter has blown it all out of the water.
Seriously, take a look at the treatment of the queen mother of the Davidic Kingdom (1 Kings 2). She has a place ordained by her role given to her by God. It's interesting that when James and John asked to sit at Jesus's right and left hands in the coming Kingdom (Mark 10:35-45), Jesus said these positions had already been filled by God. In the Davidic Kingdom, the queen mother sits at the right hand of the king.
I am sure you know (and probably want it changed) that the official NABRE has this:
Luke 1:26-30 NABRE
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Please find an OT prayer or Psalm directed towards Moses or any other human being. You won’t find one. When Joshua prayed he went directly to God and did not invoke the name of Moses nor seek the departed Moses as an intercessor.
1 Tim 2:1-4: First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
If this is your reply, you’ve misread either the question or the passage. Big difference in praying for someone and praying to someone.
Yes, it was. By the authority given them by Christ, they pronounced an end to this Law. If they have the authority to teach and give law on one matter, they have it in all matters.
Again...nothing in Scripture regarding this.
Sigh... John 20:30 & 21:25.
Answer the question. What did Jesus serve at the Last Supper. Interestingly, I have asked this question three times on this thread and I have yet to get an answer...
Why should we seek to have words changed? What does it mean to you that she was troubled by the Angel's greeting? Should she be troubled that God likes her?
It says “make not.” Which means don’t do it.
In the Catholic NABRE:
Exodus 20:4 NABRE
You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
Read our prayers to the Saints... we asking them to pray FOR us.
My point is not to poke folks in the eye. Present the scriptures for all to examine on the subject of worship and prayer and what the scriptures say. Frankly this comes to mind when these debates come up.
Revelation 22:8-9 NABRE
It is I, John, who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God.”
Revelation 19:9-10 NABRE
Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These words are true; they come from God.” I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers who bear witness to Jesus. Worship God. Witness to Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
“Mother of Christ....right?”
Christ is God....right?
“A woman born as a sinner as you and I....right?”
Nope.
“In need of salvation as you and I....right?”
Yes, but she was saved at the moment of her conception unlike you and I. Her Divine Son gave her a great gift of grace from the beginning. He saved her from sin from her beginning. You and I are saved by Christ differently for we have already sinned.
“Ok a logical argument. Then we should surmise from John being given Mary as mother of the church should logically conclude John should have been the first pontiff.”
No. Mary’s standing as mother of the Church is dependent upon Christ not John. And John’s standing as Mary’s son through Christ’s Church and His gift to him of a mother doesn’t take anything away from Christ’s previous gift to Simon when He changed his name to Peter as the Rock of the Church. John was chosen because he - as the youngest Apostles (”whom Jesus loved” 13:23) and the only Apostle to be present at the crucifixion - was representative of the whole Church in her youth and love of Christ.
So all those years I watched those good Sisters kneeling before statues of Mary and the repetitious prayers to Mary is not worship?
Since adoration comes from the Latin, that meaning would be give homage or worship. Where is this line drawn? Do we pay homage to fellow co-heirs? Such “homage” is foreign in the Bible in spiritual and worship matters or in the dealings with the departed holy men as in Moses. Of course the Levite priests did intercede, especially the assigned high priest, for the remaining tribes of Israel; however we are told in the NT Christ is now our High Priest and we are all priests who abide in Him.
So I guess I am looking for apostolic evidence from the Gospels and epistles to find the prescribed adoration, homage or worship invoked and taught by the Catholic church.
>>Christ is the Body of the Church. No stretch at all. Mary is the Mother of God. Many Protestants call that a stretch too - thereby denying Christ’s divinity even if unintentionally.<<
You do try Vlad. The Deity of Jesus Christ is explained well enough here:
Colossians 2:9-10 NABRE
For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily, and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power.(NABRE)
Calling praying to Mary and departed saints and calling it adoration instead of worship is some stretch as well. A stretch which some could conclude is establishing a pantheon.
What Catholic version of the Bible are you looking at? It seems the stamped version of the USCCB has this:
Luke 1:26-30 NABRE
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.(NABRE)
I will note there is no footnote either saying some manuscripts have “full of grace.”
So at least for the official RC English Bible they are settled on the matter. It is “favored one.”
That is an interesting eisegesis of Romans 3:23. Read the verses before after, well read the entire epistle. It is addressed to the Romans so you are Roman read it all. Then read what Augustine wrote on Romans. His expository is a lot closer to what protestants and evangelicals preach today.
Let me expand a bit. There are two types of righteousness Paul is pointing out. One by perfectly following the Law as The Father in Heaven is perfect. Only One met that standard-—Jesus Christ, not Mary, not Enoch etc. Only Jesus Christ. Then there is the Righteousness of Christ which we have access to by His Shed Blood. Mary could only access the Righteousness which is worthy of The Father by being perfect as The Father is perfect or access by The Blood of Christ. Choose your answer wisely.
I must have missed the Mary is Ark of The Covenant teaching. Can you point me to the NT apostolic teachings of this?
I know of the Ark placed in the Holy of Holies in the OT but never heard the Holy of Holies residing in the Ark. Are you saying Mary is also the mercy seat within the Holy of Holies?
Did the Israelites conduct adoration towards the Ark?
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